# Does anyone have experience with marriage counseling focused on the husband? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366 "2016-06-03T09:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/81 "2016-06-06T17:12:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think housekeeping standards are really tied into class identity, and the burden to meet those expectations–and the penalty if you don’t–falls more heavily on women. I’m embarrassed if my house doesn’t meet the standards I think it should, even if no one sees it. If someone does see it, I’m humiliated. I don’t think my husband has near this emotional reaction. And whether or not it’s fair, it’s the woman that other people will judge for being a poor housekeeper, not the man. I believe there’s a great deal of truth to this but I have to stress my observation is not about standards of cleanliness or whether things get done. It is about HOW things get done. I like things being clean. Not two days ago I was criticized for the way I was washing the dishes. It’s not that I was not making them clean; it’s that I like to apply the soap by putting some into the pot or whatever I’m washing and then pouring hot water into it, thius supplying myself with soapy water to wash things. My wife opined, in a judgmental fashion, that this was wrong; soap should be applied to the sponge directly. There is no extant evidence that the dishes aren’t being adequately cleaned, I have to point out; that has never been a problem. It’s just that her way was right because it was, and mine was wrong because it wasn’t her way. Stuff like that strikes ME as being positively weird; I don’t know why one would care about such a thing or expend the energy to criticize another person for something like that. And again, I think this is minor league stuff. What I see other couples going through is Hiroshima by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/82 "2016-06-06T17:19:27Z")
Telling a guy that he must do a better job at cleaning house than he thinks is necessary so as to please his mother-in-law might not necessarily be the best way to maintain a healthy marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/83 "2016-06-06T17:25:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > This is what makes the “whoever cares more should do more” seem unfair. I think the rationale behind the “whoever cares more” rule is that it’s unfair or unreasonable to insist that things be done in a particular way or to a certain standard but to be unwilling to put forth the effort to actually do them that way yourself. After all, if you lived alone, it would be silly to complain about things not being done properly. The reason they aren’t done is because you didn’t do them, which presumably means you didn’t think the reward of having them done was worth the effort of doing them. Of course, it complicates things when two (or more) people live together, even moreso when there are children involved. The “whoever cares more” rule makes sense as _a_ rule of thumb, but not as _the_ rule. There are other good rules of thumb too, such as “Whoever makes a mess should be the one to clean up the mess,” another one that would be mostly automatic if you lived alone. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/84 "2016-06-06T17:29:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I like to apply the soap by putting some into the pot or whatever I’m washing and then pouring hot water into it, thius supplying myself with soapy water to wash things. My wife opined, in a judgmental fashion, that this was wrong; soap should be applied to the sponge directly. A woman with whom I had a serious relationship was upset because I let the bathroom fixtures and floor air-dry after I cleaned them, rather than dry them with towels. Long story short, she ended up institutionalized. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/85 "2016-06-06T17:59:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > After all, if you lived alone, it would be silly to complain about things not being done properly. The reason they aren’t done is because you didn’t do them, which presumably means you didn’t think the reward of having them done was worth the effort of doing them. At one point I lived alone in a house with two full bathrooms. A few times women would use the bathroom and comment on what a great housekeeper I was. I’d explain that the bathroom they had just peed in was the guest bathroom, which I _never_ used, only cleaned. The other bathroom was the one I _always_ used and hardly ever cleaned. A few were curious and checked out the other bathroom. Heh. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/86 "2016-06-06T18:14:57Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Telling a guy that he must do a better job at cleaning house than he thinks is necessary so as to please his mother-in-law might not necessarily be the best way to maintain a healthy marriage. Wow, this is SO not the point. Maybe you’re joking. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/87 "2016-06-06T19:04:03Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > To a point yes, you can. In my brother and his wife’s case, who cared more, not about children, but about putting a career in the back burner to be the children’s primary caretaker, was a big factor in his spending a couple of years not working outside the home. Again though, that’s a mutually agreed upon arrangement. Obviously many couples agree on a primary caregiver. The question is what happens when there is a dispute. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/88 "2016-06-06T19:16:38Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > …When the counselor made some suggestions to my wife my wife turned on her and told her I was the one that needed the counseling not her. She suggested separate counseling with once a month joint… It’s great that there are counselors out there who believe in the existence of responsible recreational drug use. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/89 "2016-06-06T19:21:56Z")
Dear OP, please get your house in order before trying to help another. We will all live much better if we all follow this simple lesson. Thank you so much for demonstrating what a lot of us, and at times all of us, do at times. Peace, God Bless and good luck wished to you. Kanic’ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/90 "2016-06-06T19:42:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again though, that’s a mutually agreed upon arrangement. Obviously many couples agree on a primary caregiver. The question is what happens when there is a dispute. Yes, but the keystone of the decision was “he can take a break, there is no way in Hell she will so much as take less hours”. She cares more about her career even though she’s already at the highest point she’ll ever reach. To him, jobs were what she did; to her, it’s what she is. The agreement was reached upon based on who cared more about the kids always having a parent home when they got there from school than about job, and who did not. Agreements don’t just happen, in general - and when my sister in law is involved, oy vey\*. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/91 "2016-06-06T19:54:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s just that her way was right because it was, and mine was wrong because it wasn’t her way. Stuff like that strikes ME as being positively weird; I don’t know why one would care about such a thing or expend the energy to criticize another person for something like that. > > And again, I think this is minor league stuff. What I see other couples going through is Hiroshima by comparison. All I can say is that it’s all about class identity. When your mom teaches you how to do stuff, there’s a lot of “this is how we do this. Other people may have different standards, but these are ours” subtext. Being a lazy housekeeper–taking things that feel like short cuts–just seems screamingly wrong to a lot of people, especially women. > [@Nava](#): > > Yes, but the keystone of the decision was “he can take a break, there is no way in Hell she will so much as take less hours”. She cares more about her career even though she’s already at the highest point she’ll ever reach. To him, jobs were what she did; to her, it’s what she is. The agreement was reached upon based on who cared more about the kids always having a parent home when they got there from school than about job, and who did not. You know, someone might describe me like that, and it would really really piss me off. Yes, I kept my career and my husband quit his when our son was born. It wasn’t that I loved my job more and he loved our son more; that’s preposterous. It’s that I loved my job more than he loved his job, and so it made sense for me to keep going. It’s not that I didn’t care if they had a loving parent around; I cared every bit as much as he did. I mean, if your brother died, would your sister-in-law sell the kids to the gypsies so she could keep her job? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/92 "2016-06-06T20:00:16Z")
No, but she would expect her mother to become the primary caretaker. And I never said that she doesn’t love the kids; I said she cares about keeping her career more than he did about keeping his. She was not and is not willing to do anything that will reduce her standing at work, so long as there is any other option available at all. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/93 "2016-06-06T20:20:00Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’m not really sure why you’re making snarky comments like ‘if your fingers are broken’ when the cite you gave supports what I said and you appear to lack a very basic understanding of logic and statistics, you should probably save the snark for a time when you’re actually correct about something. Is it just that the article you cited doesn’t come right out and state that it’s talking about a trend or repeatedly mention that it’s numbers are averages that’s confusing you? My tone was uncalled for and I apologize. I’ll clarify that I was speaking of averages, and those numbers can inform us as to what’s probably true in a particular situation. As you said, it’s not certainty, but I didn’t aim to imply certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/94 "2016-06-06T20:22:32Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > All I can say is that it’s all about class identity. When your mom teaches you how to do stuff, there’s a lot of “this is how we do this. Other people may have different standards, but these are ours” subtext. Being a lazy housekeeper–taking things that feel like short cuts–just seems screamingly wrong to a lot of people, especially women. Yes, but his story doesn’t seem like a shortcut. It was just a different way of getting suds in the dish. As he said, the cleanliness of the dishes was not the issue, just the way the cleaning was done. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/95 "2016-06-06T20:36:19Z")
Does the OP ever come back to threads like this that she starts? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/96 "2016-06-06T20:53:45Z")
Dear kanicbird, please get your house in order before trying to help another. We will all live much better if we all follow this simple lesson. Apple Pie Bless you ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/97 "2016-06-06T21:22:13Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I think your Hyoo-mon behavior analysis program has a bug. Better report back to the mother ship and check for an update. I guessed at it. If you think you have a better understanding of it, I’d love to hear it. > [@MandaJo](#): > > I think housekeeping standards are really tied into class identity, and the burden to meet those expectations–and the penalty if you don’t–falls more heavily on women. I’m embarrassed if my house doesn’t meet the standards I think it should, even if no one sees it. If someone does see it, I’m humiliated. I don’t think my husband has near this emotional reaction. And whether or not it’s fair, it’s the woman that other people will judge for being a poor housekeeper, not the man. > > This is what makes the “whoever cares more should do more” seem unfair. I mean, obviously there is a point where someone is just indulging their own extreme preferences, but if you’re working to maintain a standard in part because your mother-in-law and mother will judge you if you don’t, it seems unfair to be told that you should be the one to do the work because you are the one who “cares”. And even if mother and mother-in-law are both abstract threats, the conditioning lingers. You talk of a penalty falling on people. What penalty is this? What is being held over their head? The Evil Eye? The penalty seems to be mainly the disapproval of the mother and mother-in-law (and perhaps other women). So, there is a tendency for women to care a lot about doing household chores to a “I was taught this way” standard and in a “I was taught this way” manner because they’re afraid other women will disapprove of them. Those same women will likely become the same mothers and mothers-in-law who will exert the very same pressure on the next generation of women. And if many men don’t want to indulge that particular self-perpetuating intergenerational neuroticism, they’re doing wrong? They should join in and reinforce that dynamic? You talk of a conditioning lingering. The way to get rid of noxious conditioning is not to indulge it. The more you feed it to quiet it, the more you end up with situations like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea5jKFGgUw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea5jKFGgUw) ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/98 "2016-06-07T03:33:56Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Does the OP ever come back to threads like this that she starts? She’s been on the dope as recently as this morning. Perhaps this isn’t going as she had hoped it would. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/99 "2016-06-07T04:07:06Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > And if many men don’t want to indulge that particular self-perpetuating intergenerational neuroticism, they’re doing wrong? They should join in and reinforce that dynamic? Well, who gets to decide what proper housekeeping is? Bit arbitrary isn’t it? She thinks it’s about pleasing others, you think it’s just about keeping away the cockroaches, but who gets to decide? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366/100 "2016-06-07T04:51:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > She thinks it’s about pleasing others, you think it’s just about keeping away the cockroaches, but who gets to decide? Archy (one of the greatest poet-philosophers of all time). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-have-experience-with-marriage-counseling-focused-on-the-husband/756366.md?page=6)