Hmmmm, I might spend a lot of time on that site in the coming weeks, thanks !
Now, you’re really tempting me. I’d love that !
I’m in Europe, so it might be difficult to arrange a meeting, although I’m planning to go to New York with my daughters next summer.
I’m also wondering who that is. There aren’t thousands of linguists who specialize in the Algonquian languages. I’ve read articles by a couple of them and one, who’s a real authority in the field, might fit your description.
Thanks a lot, in any case.
Oh, I would have jumped at the opportunity…
Fascinating, thanks (again).
Yes, I already knew that website.
Yes, and with something like retroflexes. I’ll check whether Cree has those.
I know why I didn’t–I had my dissertation half-written before entering the program and I have very little talent for languages, but most of the bozos in my Ph. D. program hadn’t a clue what to write a dissertation on.
Years ago, while researching the life of a Lenape sachem, I corresponded with Touching Leaves Woman (Nora Thompson Dean), who was one of the last people around who’d grown up speaking Lenape. She translated some names for me, and I got a couple of Lenape language tapes. But I never dud try to learn to speak it.
Thanks for all of the info on the Ohio place names! I recognize all of the places you’re talking about. Super interesting!
When you mentioned “hocking” I immediately thought of “Hocking Hills” which is a very popular camping/hiking area in Ohio. I was wondering how “where the fields are” might describe this area, because it’s known to be a lot of rivers and caverns and rock formations. According to the Wikipedia entry:
The region was first settled by Christian Eby and was named from a shortened version of the Hockhocking River by the Shawnee Indian tribe. “Hockhocking”, in the Delaware tongue, signifies a bottle. The Shawnee people thought that a very narrow and straight creek above the waterfall on the Hockhocking River resembled a bottle’s neck.
My question for you is: Is the Delaware word not related to the Shawnee word? Or is “Hockhocking” not related to the “hocking” despite them seeming related? Or does “hocking” mean “the wide open space” while “hockhocking” mean “the wide open space that narrows”? Or am I just a confused non-linguist?
That’s her there! That’s her voice you hear in the Talking Dictionary. She got a lot of help, but most of the recordings are her own voice. She devoted every moment of her life to preserving Lenape language and tradition. The resources we now have are all thanks to her and her co-workers.
Thank you for the correction! Didn’t reckon on the word having been truncated.
They’re two unrelated words whose first syllables sound alike:
The word for ‘bottle’ is hàkhàkw. It’s pronounced approximately “huck-huck.” The final k sound is rounded as though you were going to say “huck-hucko,” but stopped before you got to the o.
The word for ‘earth, land, field’ is hàki, pronounced “huckee.”
So Hockhocking, with the locative suffix, literally means ‘in a bottle’. Though Shawnee is a related language, these words are Unami Delaware. The Shawnee word for earth is ake or aki. The Shawnee word for bottle is withakochqua.
Glad you caught that, ZipperJJ. Dopers, do like her. If something doesn’t seem quite right, call it out and ask for verification. I make my share of mistakes all right.
At the risk of seeming racist, insensitive, or stupid, I wonder if anyone has formulated reasons many of the words in native languages seem to be so complex. Native terms for common things like “sky” or “river” often seem to be multisyllabic tongue-twisters–is this because I’m just unfamiliar with the language, or is there some linguistic principle behind this complexity?
My understanding is that many First Nations languages are agglutinative, unlike languages like English, and more like like languages like Hungarian. In agglutinative languages, words are built from individual phonemes, so can become longer depending on how the basic term is being used.
ETA: I should have checked; they’re classified as polysynthetic, not necessarily agglutinative, although the concepts are related.
I grew up in Wheeling, WV, so not very far from southwestern PA. I used to ride my bicycle to Washington PA every now and then.
There’s a bit of mystery and dispute about how Wheeling got its name. One of the more credible theories is that it comes from the Lenape word “wilink” (or something along those lines), which supposedly means “place of the head”. An online dictionary translates it to “on his head”, for what it’s worth (I don’t speak Lenape so I can’t say how accurate it is). The legend goes that someone, either a settler or a captured Native American enemy, depending on whose story you go by, was scalped and decapitated, and their head was put on a stake where Wheeling Creek meets the Ohio River, warning everyone to stay away.
It’s quite possible that this story is just as fictional as yours, but so far it’s the most plausible theory that I have heard.
Yeah, I think we need to take into account the general tendency of somebody encountering a completely unfamiliar language to perceive its words as longer and more phonetically incomprehensible than they actually are.
The examples I’ve seen of words for “sky” and “river” in North American languages don’t seem to be particularly long. And they’re “tongue-twisters” only in the sense that most words in a language with a different phonetic system from what you’re used to are going to seem unpronounceable.
“Sky” in Narragansett is “kéesuck”, and in Inuktitut “qilak”, for example.
I suspect that the roots themselves are not necessarily that long but, since we’re talking about polysythetic languages as @Northern_Piper pointed out, they are rarely, if at all, found in isolation and usually appear with long strings of affixes “in the wild”.
I was asking slicedalone for the examples that he knew of so that we could examine those examples and see what he was talking about. Since he doesn’t remember any examples, there’s no way to see what he was talking about. We could examine the examples he knows about and could show him exactly what is going on in those examples. But we have no specific examples.
Inalienable possessions (like heads, feet, relatives) always have a possessive pronoun added or fused into them, never a bare mention without their belonging to somebody, in a great many Native American languages. It’s an areal feature shared across many unrelated language families, e.g. Athabaskan, Iroquoian, or Algonquian.