# Does anyone like Obama's health care plan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026 "2010-09-25T17:39:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/81 "2010-09-30T13:24:55Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > > [@Simplicio](#): > > > > Eh, its not like we don’t provide for anyones healthcare except veterans. Everyone who gets inusrance through their job gets a tax-subsidy that dwarfs the size of Obama’s plan. The poor have Medicaid, the elderly Medicare, the disabled Social Security, gov’t workers are on one of a plethora of gov’t plans. The end result is that the US actually pays a larger chunk of its GDP in _public_ healthcare spending then do most countries that have completely gov’t run healthcare systems. > > > > So I don’t think the problem is so much that we heartlessly turn our backs on providing healthcare, but that we do so in a massively disorganized and hodge-podge way that costs nearly twice as much as most other industrialized nations. > > T.R. Reid of the Washington Post wrote a book called “The Healing of America” that describes that ‘hodge-podge’ quite well. > > A [Businessweek](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_34/b4144089895459.htm) review of the book said: > > \*… he learned that almost all countries use one of four health-care models: Germany’s Bismarck system, in which hospitals and insurers are private entities and financing comes from payroll deductions; Britain’s Beveridge Model, with the government providing health care financed by taxes; the Canadian plan, where private doctors and hospitals are paid by the government through taxes; and the out-of-pocket care found in most poor nations, where those who can afford care get it, while the rest suffer or die. > > Unlike any other country, the U.S. combines all four models. The employer-based coverage most workers get follows the Bismarck Model. Veterans and soldiers are treated under the Beveridge Model (which conservatives often call socialized medicine). Medicare is so similar to Canada’s system that they share the name. And the 47 million uninsured do as Cambodians do. > > - Two questions about that: 1. In America, emergency rooms are required to care for those who come in needing help. How does that compare to the “Cambodians” way? 2. Where do unemployed Germans factor in? If they don’t have a job and can’t pay for their insurance via payroll deductions, what are their options? ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/82 "2010-09-30T15:37:41Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@jasg](#): > > > > T.R. Reid of the Washington Post wrote a book called “The Healing of America” that describes that ‘hodge-podge’ quite well. > > > > A [Businessweek](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_34/b4144089895459.htm) review of the book said: > > > > \*… he learned that almost all countries use one of four health-care models: Germany’s Bismarck system, in which hospitals and insurers are private entities and financing comes from payroll deductions; Britain’s Beveridge Model, with the government providing health care financed by taxes; the Canadian plan, where private doctors and hospitals are paid by the government through taxes; and the out-of-pocket care found in most poor nations, where those who can afford care get it, while the rest suffer or die. > > > > Unlike any other country, the U.S. combines all four models. The employer-based coverage most workers get follows the Bismarck Model. Veterans and soldiers are treated under the Beveridge Model (which conservatives often call socialized medicine). Medicare is so similar to Canada’s system that they share the name. And the 47 million uninsured do as Cambodians do. > > > > - > > Two questions about that: > > 1. In America, emergency rooms are required to care for those who come in needing help. How does that compare to the “Cambodians” way? > > 2. Where do unemployed Germans factor in? If they don’t have a job and can’t pay for their insurance via payroll deductions, what are their options? Well, I didn’t do the research and write the book but I’ll take a stab at answers. Others with more knowledge might pipe in as well. A1) American Emergency care can be considered as limited form of charity care. They will set your broken bone or stabilize you after a coronary, but limited in that they won’t provide rehab or a bypass. Services are paid for by government or higher charges to paying patients or insurers. In Cambodia, if you can’t pay - there are NGOs that can provide care for free. A2) I believe that unemployment benefits in Germany also cover medical insurance. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/83 "2010-09-30T16:46:58Z")
Yeah, Germany has some kind of welfare/dole/unemployment system that includes some medical care. I remember a Doper mentioning it in a thread last year or thereabouts. In my experience, US Emergency departments treat first & charge later, but they charge a lot. So a poor patient has to find a patron to cover them, or go to collections. This may vary by state, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/84 "2010-09-30T17:20:24Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yeah, Germany has some kind of welfare/dole/unemployment system that includes some medical care. I remember a Doper mentioning it in a thread last year or thereabouts. > > In my experience, US Emergency departments treat first & charge later, but they charge a lot. So a poor patient has to find a patron to cover them, or go to collections. This may vary by state, I suppose. Ultimately, a lot of care is just written off. I can’t find the cite, but I recently saw a news bit about UK charity that was providing free health care in Appalachia. I guess that means there are foreign NGOs here that help the uninsured. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/85 "2010-09-30T18:16:31Z")
The status quo with american healthcare is that americans pay an awful lot for their healthcare – around twice as much per person than most of the developed world. And there’s little evidence that this pays for better survival / recovery rates. There seems to be a lot of waste – a large proportion seems to pay for insurance company profits, unnecessary tests and the routine prescription of branded drugs where equally effective generics are available. And despite the amount spent, and unlike the rest of the developed world, a significant proportion of the population are uninsured. “Obamacare” only really addresses the last of these problems, but it’s a start. A bill that addressed all of the above problems would clearly be communist :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/86 "2010-09-30T19:31:10Z")
If public health care is Communism, sign me up for the Revolution! Do the people who think socialized medicine is so awful (except for retirees) understand that they’re just driving the poor to the left–to the _hard_ left? If no one in free capitalist America is for me, then why am I for freedom, capitalism, or America for that matter? I’ll join anyone who promises to rid me of these hateful rulers–& as I live in a democracy, I mean the voters. Up against the wall! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/87 "2010-10-01T03:06:06Z")
Delaying the protection for adults regarding pre-existing conditions until 2014 is a move which really rankles. I know kids are now (mostly) prevented from being denied coverage, but so what? I and my lady are more important to this country than anyone’s kids are - for one thing, we pay an assload of taxes which will be used to subsidize this thing in the first place. Everyone should have been protected at the same time. My other problem is that I don’t for a second believe Obama and the Democrats who claim this will save money and pay for itself, nor do I believe the pet teenaged or ivory tower professor bloggers that folks trot out, nor the GAO for that matter. I did quite a bit of study on this subject for someone, and I simply do not believe this will not result in a large increase in the deficit. I’m not saying the plan shouldn’t have happened, I’m saying we should have had a tax increase to pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/88 "2010-10-01T03:36:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I and my lady are more important to this country than anyone’s kids are :rolleyes: Get the fuck over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/89 "2010-10-01T04:13:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@DanBlather](#): > > > > Imagine you are in Manhattan and want to drive to Florida. You have to drive through New Jersey. When you stop for gas if someone asked if you like being in New Jersey you’d say no, of course not, but you are happy you are on your way to Florida. > > To carry that analogy further, though, the really salient question is whether the Obamacare plan is actually a step towards a better plan. It’s fine to be in New Jersey for awhile if you’re driving from NYC to Florida, but if you find yourself in Toledo, you’ve made a serious mistake in your long term plans. It’s an excellent analogy (combined with **DanBlather’s** ) because “Obamacare” is not the most direct route toward where we need to be. But that’s not even mostly his fault, and at least it gets us in the car and on the road. Let me take your new new ‘Toledo twist’ and then “drive” the analogy still further. Yeah, it really sucks to have to take a ridiculous detour through Toledo when you just want to drive from NYC to Florida. So you understandably would be really pissed at the idiots who forced to you take that detour. Let’s say these idiots were a bloc of stubborn politicians who decided to tear up the roadways and burn the bridges in NJ, Maryland, Virginia, WV, NC and SC-- not only making _you_ take a lot longer (and unnecessarily spend more money) to get to Florida, but greatly inconveniencing their _own constituents_ as well. But you still want to go to Florida, so you just curse the idiot obstructionist politicians, do whatever you can to heave them out of office, and get to the Sunshine as soon as you can. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/90 "2010-10-01T04:40:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > I and my lady are more important to this country than anyone’s kids are > > :rolleyes: Get the fuck over yourself. Yes, to the economy of this country and in terms of paying for the health care costs via taxes, we are more important. We’re employed, professional adults supporting this country. Kids are consumers of resources who generally do not support the country. In simple language: - If a kid is denied health care coverage for pre-existing conditions, and gets seriously sick or injured, the parents are out a lot of money. - If working adults are denied health care coverage for pre-existing conditions, and get seriously sick or injured, not only are they out a lot of money, but they’re likely unable to work, thus ceasing to pay taxes. Which is what is going to pay for Obamacare in the first place. Then of course there is the combined effect of if the parents are denied coverage for pre-existing conditions and out of work and running up huge bills, then this further hurts the kids. In fact, denying the adults coverage puts the children at potentially more risk. I can’t see how that’s good for kids. Further, I called me and mine out as examples because we both have very expensive pre-existing medical conditions, which would almost certainly deny us coverage until 2014 if we got on the wrong job, or were out of work. I’m guessing you didn’t think things through before you made a direct personal attack in Great Debates and shot your mouth off. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/91 "2010-10-01T04:51:00Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Yes, to the economy of this country and in terms of paying for the health care costs via taxes, we are more important. No you’re fucking not. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m guessing you didn’t think things through before you made a direct personal attack in Great Debates and shot your mouth off. Guess away. I know you didn’t think it through at all. Children are generally assumed to have unlimited potential. Read a philosophy book sometime. This is not an uncommon or radical assumption, in fact it’s a common argument for people who are simultaneously “Pro-Life” and pro death penalty; but don’t think it a uniquely conservative stance. Pultizer-Prize winner Douglas Hofstadter expands on the notion at length in his book _I am a Strange Loop_. On the other hand, we pretty much know your limits. And play to the ump all you want, I really don’t think a mod is going to consider that a personal insult considering the stuff I see here on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/92 "2010-10-01T04:52:19Z")
We are all, I’m sure, sad to hear of your health problems, but pleased that you are well insured and productively employed. May we hope it is not in the diplomatic corps? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/93 "2010-10-01T05:16:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > Yes, to the economy of this country and in terms of paying for the health care costs via taxes, we are more important. > > No you’re fucking not. Great comeback - I’m not right, because Cisco says so. O…K. I suppose you have a cite showing the average kid age 18 and under will pay more taxes to support health care in this country than the average adult…you just forgot to post it. I laid out the issues in plain language. I think covering the children with the pre-existing coverage legislation early, and not the parents, is more harmful to children in the long run. It’s more harmful to families. You have refused to show why that is not so, instead you’re throwing around the “f” word a lot because…well, I suppose you reckon yourself a Big Man, right? Puff out your chest a little more when you do it. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m guessing you didn’t think things through before you made a direct personal attack in Great Debates and shot your mouth off. > > Guess away. I know you didn’t think it through at all. Cite? > [@](#): > > Children are generally assumed to have unlimited potential. Read a philosophy book sometime. I’m sorry, this is a discussion about a real, actual health care policy. No child is going to be medically better off from the wishy-washy whatever you’re trying to shoehorn in here. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, we pretty much know your limits. Cite? > [@](#): > > And play to the ump all you want, I really don’t think a mod is going to consider that a personal insult considering the stuff I see here on a daily basis. You can backpedal and try to misdirect all you want. I guess for some people it’s easier than saying “my bad.” You read what you wanted to into my post. If I was unclear or too brief, most non-violent, thinking adults would have the God damned common decency to post saying “um, did you mean to say that?” or at least rebut intelligently. Or I guess you can drop in with semi-random snipes like elucidator. Tell me, elucidator, you actually support putting kids at risk by not covering the parents to the same level of the children? I’m proposing _more_ health coverage for _more_ people on a faster schedule than the Obamacare plan - definitely a view I would have thought you would agree with. I think we’ve learned a lot here today. Cisco wants to be a Big Man use “fuck” a lot to show us all what a Big Man he is, and he’s not a-scared of no Rules, no sir! And elucidator can’t even stay on message when an opportunity presents itself to snipe at someone on the other side of the political field - even when they espouse a position which is on his own side. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/94 "2010-10-01T05:24:05Z")
Wow. Post #88 was far more prescient than I could’ve realized. You have issues, lady. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/95 "2010-10-01T06:52:12Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > … And elucidator can’t even stay on message when an opportunity presents itself to snipe at someone on the other side of the political field - even when they espouse a position which is on his own side. Well, shitfire, **Una** , if that’s the way you agree with me, I dread to think of a disagreement, I’d be scarred for life! WHAP! I agree wtih you! WHAP WHAP! Another good point, **'lu** c, we are of one mind, here! CLOBBER, BASH! I mean, when you start out with > [@](#): > > …I and my lady are more important to this country than anyone’s kids are… Its a little tough to see you as a fellow partisan for my egalitarian, humanistic cause. Now, you tell me you’re pulling on the same end of the rope as I am, fine, I won’t kick you off the team for eating crackers. Need all the help we can get. But what I tell you three times is true: as Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I thought you were putting forth the exact opposite view. And in the words of the Wolfman Jack, if I’m lyin’, I’m dyin’. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/96 "2010-10-01T11:36:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I know you didn’t think it through at all. Children are generally assumed to have unlimited potential. Read a philosophy book sometime. I don’t think that this is the consensus view, nor do I think it has practical significance even if it is true. We don’t have a perfect environment to develop a child’s full potential, and never will. I suppose we could develop a novel teaching technique that could make this generation of children far superior to the previous one…it’s not a realistic possibility however. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/97 "2010-10-01T11:59:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > O…K. I suppose you have a cite showing the average kid age 18 and under will pay more taxes to support health care in this country than the average adult…you just forgot to post it. Well. . . since kids have longer left to live, surely its kinda obvious that they’ll pay more taxes? Unless of course the world ends tomorrow. Do you know something we don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/98 "2010-10-01T13:11:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wow. Post #88 was far more prescient than I could’ve realized. You have issues, lady. Says the man who waddled into this thread, shot off his mouth like a bully, got called on it, and then instead of just saying “my bad” and moving ahead, dug in his heels and tried some Rove-worthy spinmeistering here. If my post was unclear or too brief, I think most nonviolent posters would have at least had the interpersonal skills to post “what do you mean?” or debate me on some sort of honest grounds. You on the other hand wanted to make a direct personal attack as a drive by and hope I wouldn’t respond. Since you refuse to take this issue seriously, I suggest you print out a copy of the thread, fold it into a Napoleonic bicorn hat, and write “Big Man” on one side and “Fuck!” on the other, so you can wear it as King o’ the Thread. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/99 "2010-10-01T13:16:47Z")
> [@carm](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > O…K. I suppose you have a cite showing the average kid age 18 and under will pay more taxes to support health care in this country than the average adult…you just forgot to post it. > > Well. . . since kids have longer left to live, surely its kinda obvious that they’ll pay more taxes? > > Unless of course the world ends tomorrow. Do you know something we don’t? That is a good point - in fact, I believe that the Obamacare plan will in fact lead to children today paying significantly more in taxes over their life than adults today. But I was talking about the time period where adults, including parents, could fall into the 2014 gap. Nonetheless, poor choice of words on my part in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026/100 "2010-10-01T16:37:13Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@Cisco](#): > > > > Wow. Post #88 was far more prescient than I could’ve realized. You have issues, lady. > > Says the man who waddled into this thread, shot off his mouth like a bully, got called on it, and then instead of just saying “my bad” and moving ahead, dug in his heels and tried some Rove-worthy spinmeistering here. > > If my post was unclear or too brief, I think most nonviolent posters would have at least had the interpersonal skills to post “what do you mean?” or debate me on some sort of honest grounds. You on the other hand wanted to make a direct personal attack as a drive by and hope I wouldn’t respond. > > Since you refuse to take this issue seriously, I suggest you print out a copy of the thread, fold it into a Napoleonic bicorn hat, and write “Big Man” on one side and “Fuck!” on the other, so you can wear it as King o’ the Thread. Keep thinking everybody who calls you on saying ridiculous shit is a delusional, violent tourette’s patient. I bet it has worked out really well for you in life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-like-obamas-health-care-plan/555026.md?page=6)