# DOES anyone on this board believe in ghosts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862 "2010-08-02T06:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/181 "2010-08-13T16:03:14Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have never experienced ghosts, but I have talked to people to claimed to have, and they seemed to be honest about it. > > Despite a scientific inquiry into the occult that has lasted for at least a century and half, there is no incontrovertible proof that ghosts exist. There is impressive evidence. Ghosts are difficult to study scientifically, because the events are rare and random. If scientists knew in advance when a ghost would appear, they could have measuring devices in place, along with cameras and recorders. > > Hans Holzer made a name for himself as a ghost hunter, writing many books about his alleged experiences. There are professional skeptics. There is even a magazine devoted to skepticism. It would have been quite an achievement for a skeptic to expose Holzer as a fraud. To the best of my knowledge none have. Sincerely self-deluded does not equal fraud. The man could well have been totally mistaken in his interpretations of his experiences, or the level of credence he gives other people’s stories, but if he was not trying to mislead anyone then he is not a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/182 "2010-08-13T16:11:43Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have never experienced ghosts, but I have talked to people to claimed to have, and they seemed to be honest about it. 1. Just because they “seem” to be honest doesn’t necessarily mean they are. 2. No one disputes that plenty of people actually believe they’ve seen ghosts. Sincerity is not meaningful evidence. > [@](#): > > Despite a scientific inquiry into the occult that has lasted for at least a century and half, there is no incontrovertible proof that ghosts exist. There’s no evidence of any kind, not just “no inconrovertable proof.” There’s nothing at all. > [@](#): > > There is impressive evidence. Like what? > [@](#): > > Ghosts are difficult to study scientifically, because the events are rare and random. What events? > [@](#): > > If scientists knew in advance when a ghost would appear, they could have measuring devices in place, along with cameras and recorders. What would they be measuring? > [@](#): > > Hans Holzer made a name for himself as a ghost hunter, writing many books about his alleged experiences. There are professional skeptics. There is even a magazine devoted to skepticism. It would have been quite an achievement for a skeptic to expose Holzer as a fraud. To the best of my knowledge none have. Was he willing to subject himself to scientific testing? Was he ever able to prove a single thing he claimed? Who do you think has the burden of proof here? Individul pieces of his act can be definitively shown to be fraudulent, though. For instance, he was a big proponent of the Amityville hoax, and in fact, is the one who came up with the complete fiction about the house being built on an Indian buril ground. The guy was a full metal con artist. I don’t know what you would accept as evidence proving him a fraud, or why you think there would be particularly any more noteriety in specifically targeting him for “exposure” than any other fake psychic, and I think you’re confused about who ahs the burden of proof anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/183 "2010-08-13T17:15:39Z")
> [@Grateful-UnDead](#): > > That’s it??? That’s all you have??? > > Once upon a time, somebody, somewhere did something or other??? > > This is what you true believers have for the foundation of your belief? > > This is what gives you not only absolute certainty, but the confidence to attack and denigrate anyone who raises a question? > > Even the wildest religious cult has more to it than that; but I do see how your beliefs and those of the average cult are pretty much the same. > > I withdraw my previous comment about “bush league”. > > A more appropriate reference would have been to the lower end of the digestive tract, and the product thereof. > > After I stop laughing, my sides stop aching, and the tears stop rolling down my cheeks, I will continue reading from the oracle of Google. It at least has a smidgen of credibility. It’s too bad you think that way. Us true believers in the nonexistence of ghosts have tried our best to convert you, but ultimately the decision is up to you. The Cult of Nonbelievers in Ghosts will be waiting for you once you’re ready to join us. Other cults you’re welcome to join: The Cult of Nonbelievers in the Tooth Fairy The Cult of Nonbelievers in UFOs The Cult of Nonbelievers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster The Cult of Nonbelievers in Bigfoot The Cult of Nonbelievers in Queen Elizabeth Being Reptilian The Cult of Nonbelievers in the Earth being Flat The Cult of Nonbelievers in Elves The Cult of Nonbelievers in Unicorns The Cult of Nonbelievers in the Greek Gods The Cult of Nonbelievers in Gremlins The Cult of Nonbelievers in Psychic Powers The Cult of Nonbelievers in Geo-centrism The Cult of Nonbelievers in Wizards and Witches The Cult of Nonbelievers in Trees That Talk Only When Humans Aren’t Around The Cult of Nonbelievers in Vampires …man, I could go on all day. There’re a lot of 'em! And the fun we have, sitting around discussing things we don’t believe in. You’re missing out! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/184 "2010-08-13T17:31:28Z")
> [@Grateful-UnDead](#): > > That’s it??? That’s all you have??? > > Once upon a time, somebody, somewhere did something or other??? > > This is what you true believers have for the foundation of your belief? > > This is what gives you not only absolute certainty, but the confidence to attack and denigrate anyone who raises a question? > > Even the wildest religious cult has more to it than that; but I do see how your beliefs and those of the average cult are pretty much the same. > > I withdraw my previous comment about “bush league”. > > A more appropriate reference would have been to the lower end of the digestive tract, and the product thereof. > > After I stop laughing, my sides stop aching, and the tears stop rolling down my cheeks, I will continue reading from the oracle of Google. It at least has a smidgen of credibility. This would be more impressive if you weren’t the poster child of Got Nothin’. And the fact that you have to pretend that I just said “Once upon a time, somebody, somewhere did something or other???” proves that you yourself know that the stuff I _did_ mention blows your position into nothingness, not the way that the hidden bombs in the holographic planes did to the twin towers on 9/11, but instead the way that a slight breeze dismisses a small substanceless whiff of smoke. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I have never experienced ghosts, but I have talked to people to claimed to have, and they seemed to be honest about it. > > Despite a scientific inquiry into the occult that has lasted for at least a century and half, there is no incontrovertible proof that ghosts exist. There is impressive evidence. Ghosts are difficult to study scientifically, because the events are rare and random. If scientists knew in advance when a ghost would appear, they could have measuring devices in place, along with cameras and recorders. > > Hans Holzer made a name for himself as a ghost hunter, writing many books about his alleged experiences. There are professional skeptics. There is even a magazine devoted to skepticism. It would have been quite an achievement for a skeptic to expose Holzer as a fraud. To the best of my knowledge none have. If Hans Holzer is so good at finding ghosts, why doesn’t he bring along measuring devices, cameras, and recorders? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/185 "2010-08-13T17:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] [If Hans Holzer is so good at finding ghosts, why doesn’t he bring along measuring devices, cameras, and recorders? [/QUOTE] They did this in _Poltergeist_, and you could see ghosts and spirits and stuff, and the needles really deflected and everything. That’s science! You can’t do that most of the time though, it scares off the spooks. And everyone knows that _your_ science can’t measure _our_ woo. Except if something resembling science seems to prove what we want, then science is OK. And there really are ghosts, except They don’t want us to know. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/186 "2010-08-13T18:05:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > I have never experienced ghosts, but I have talked to people to claimed to have, and they seemed to be honest about it. > > > > Despite a scientific inquiry into the occult that has lasted for at least a century and half, there is no incontrovertible proof that ghosts exist. There is impressive evidence. Ghosts are difficult to study scientifically, because the events are rare and random. If scientists knew in advance when a ghost would appear, they could have measuring devices in place, along with cameras and recorders. > > > > Hans Holzer made a name for himself as a ghost hunter, writing many books about his alleged experiences. There are professional skeptics. There is even a magazine devoted to skepticism. It would have been quite an achievement for a skeptic to expose Holzer as a fraud. To the best of my knowledge none have. > > Sincerely self-deluded does not equal fraud. The man could well have been totally mistaken in his interpretations of his experiences, or the level of credence he gives other people’s stories, but if he was not trying to mislead anyone then he is not a fraud. Hans Holzer’s accounts are too detailed to be based on fraud. In his books he will claim that people had experiences with ghosts and asked him to investigate He will show up with a medium, who will talk to the ghost. Near where I live there used to be a bar and restaurant that was at least as old as the Civil War. One day when I was there alone with the owner, he claimed that several times when he was alone after closing hours, and working in the basement office he would hear the door open, and a woman and two men would walk in. They would be laughing and talking, and they would play jazz music on the jukebox. The problem, of course, is that the bar and restaurant was closed. The jukebox did not have jazz selections. Several days later, I was back, and I was along with an employee. He told me that he had had similar experiences, but he thought there were three men and a woman. He also said that he used to live in an apartment directly above from the bar and restaurant, and that sometimes when he was there after closing hours he would hear jazz from below. They may have been making that up, but my sense of things is that they were telling me what they believed. A week later, I tried to get the owner to tell me more, but he seem embarrassed to, as though I would think he was delusional. I wanted to take a sleeping bag to that place, and spend the night there, but it soon closed. Months later, I mentioned all that to a bar tender at another bar. She said, “Oh yes, that place is haunted,” as though there was nothing unusual about that. She told me about an experience of her own there, and said that someone had been murdered there. That is the kind of phenomenon Hans Holzer investigated, or at least claimed to. I lave lived in old houses. I never had occult experiences in them. When I was younger I liked to visit cemeteries after dark. The scariest thing that ever happened to me was when I nearly got arrested. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/187 "2010-08-13T18:11:08Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Hans Holzer’s accounts are too detailed to be based on fraud. Wait, what? I can come up with as complicated a lie as you please, given time. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/188 "2010-08-13T18:37:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > [Hans Holzer’s accounts are too detailed to be based on fraud. How do you figure that? Why do you think people can’t invent details? Have you ever seen a movie? Lots of detail in those. > [@](#): > > In his books he will claim that people had experiences with ghosts and asked him to investigate He will show up with a medium, who will talk to the ghost. Yes he claims these things. This is evidence of what? > [@](#): > > Near where I live there used to be a bar and restaurant that was at least as old as the Civil War. One day when I was there alone with the owner, he claimed that several times when he was alone after closing hours, and working in the basement office he would hear the door open, and a woman and two men would walk in. They would be laughing and talking, and they would play jazz music on the jukebox. > > The problem, of course, is that the bar and restaurant was closed. The jukebox did not have jazz selections. Several days later, I was back, and I was along with an employee. He told me that he had had similar experiences, but he thought there were three men and a woman. He also said that he used to live in an apartment directly above from the bar and restaurant, and that sometimes when he was there after closing hours he would hear jazz from below. > > They may have been making that up, but my sense of things is that they were telling me what they believed. A week later, I tried to get the owner to tell me more, but he seem embarrassed to, as though I would think he was delusional. > > I wanted to take a sleeping bag to that place, and spend the night there, but it soon closed. Months later, I mentioned all that to a bar tender at another bar. She said, “Oh yes, that place is haunted,” as though there was nothing unusual about that. She told me about an experience of her own there, and said that someone had been murdered there. They were most likely shining you on. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/189 "2010-08-13T19:20:19Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Hans Holzer’s accounts are too detailed to be based on fraud. There exists an entire class of people, called “writers” or “novelists” who actually make a living by creating stories that are extremely detailed, even moreso than factual accounts can be. Be that as it may, I have a couple of Holzer’s older books as reading material in the downstairs lavatory. A typical story seems to be that someone tells Hans about a ghost, he brings in a medium, and the medium tells a story completely different than what the homeowners were saying. Hans then ties himself into knots trying to reconcile the two “accounts,” with a lot of vague references and general statements about the time when the house was built. Entertaining as bathroom reads,but I have read many better ghost stories. (My own experiences are boring, but everyone on the ovenight shift at one of my jobs had seen the Man in the Brown Suit at some point or another. I could extrapolate a lot, but we all agree that we seemed to see a man wearing brown pass by the end of an aisle in the warehouse. No closer encounters, sorry.) ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/190 "2010-08-14T13:17:18Z")
Ghosts are not real. Unfortunately, because they would be kind of cool. Assuming they weren’t horrible demonspawn hellbent on stealing souls and dragging them through the nine circles of Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/191 "2010-08-14T14:38:27Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > Hans Holzer’s accounts are too detailed to be based on fraud. > > There exists an entire class of people, called “writers” or “novelists” who actually make a living by creating stories that are extremely detailed, even moreso than factual accounts can be. > > Be that as it may, I have a couple of Holzer’s older books as reading material in the downstairs lavatory. A typical story seems to be that someone tells Hans about a ghost, he brings in a medium, and the medium tells a story completely different than what the homeowners were saying. Hans then ties himself into knots trying to reconcile the two “accounts,” with a lot of vague references and general statements about the time when the house was built. > > Entertaining as bathroom reads,but I have read many better ghost stories. (My own experiences are boring, but everyone on the ovenight shift at one of my jobs had seen the Man in the Brown Suit at some point or another. I could extrapolate a lot, but we all agree that we seemed to see a man wearing brown pass by the end of an aisle in the warehouse. No closer encounters, sorry.) It doesn’t matter to the woos. If the story is elaborate, with no holes, they will say that _must_ be true because of the many details. If the story is spotty and full of holes, they will say that it _must_ be true because a fake story would be too elaborate to be real. ---
**Author:** ![ilovetofart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/41988e/32.png) [@ilovetofart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ilovetofart)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/192 "2010-08-14T17:40:09Z")
I consider myself a sane, happy go lucky person with no history of mental health issues. After a six month long experience in the house I used to live in last year. I absolutely know that there is paranormal phenomena that can not be explained. Yes, I absolutely believe in ghosts. I have EVPs taken by myself and also with teams of paranormal investigators who investigated my house that are unexplainable and mindblowing. Before the investigation, there were numerous things that happened to me from being pushed, touched, hair pulled, hearing growling (by far the scariest thing to happen to me at 4 am in bed) seeing solid black shadows float across the room at incredible speeds and many other unusual events. The EVPs captured were also incredible. I’m in the process of getting them on the internet. I’m talking about EVPs that are full sentences and are clear as a bell and I was there when they were captured. They could not have been altered in any way. So it’s easy to say, “no they don’t exist, show me the evidence” when you’ve never experienced something like this, but once it happens to you…pfff…you’ll be singing a different tune. Trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/193 "2010-08-14T20:32:16Z")
Trust me, I won’t. I hope you haven’t given those ghostbuster scammers too much of your money. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/194 "2010-08-14T21:57:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Near where I live there used to be a bar and restaurant that was at least as old as the Civil War. One day when I was there alone with the owner, he claimed that several times when he was alone after closing hours, and working in the basement office he would hear the door open, and a woman and two men would walk in. They would be laughing and talking, and they would play jazz music on the jukebox. My personal favorite jazz tune from the Civil War is the “I-Feel-Like-I’m-Fixin-To-Die-In-Pickett’s-Charge” Rag. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/195 "2010-08-18T04:24:05Z")
I too have encountered the supernatural. Perhaps the voice of God, or a ghost. It was over thirty years ago at a Waldbaum’s grocery store in New York. It was late, and the store was nearly deserted. As I pushed a cart down the aisle, from nowhere I heard a voice distinctly say ‘Buy 1 pound of roast beef or smoked ham at the deli counter, and you will get a pound of potato salad or macaroni salad for free’. Startled, I looked up and down the aisles for someone who could have spoken those words, but no one was there. I assumed it was some sort of hallucination. But moments later, I heard the voice again, repeating the same message, and this time adding, ‘Hurry, the store will close in 15 minutes’. I don’t know why, but as I passed the deli counter I thought it couldn’t hurt to buy some roast beef. So I ordered a pound of the roast beef. After wrapping it up and handing it to me, to my enduring surpise, the deli worker said to me, ‘You can have a pound of potato salad or macaroni salad for free’. If that is not proof of the supernatural, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862/196 "2010-08-18T06:15:47Z")
Did the voice also thank you for shopping at Waldbaum’s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-on-this-board-believe-in-ghosts/548862.md?page=9)