# Does ANYONE think penalties is a good way to decide a real football thriller? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 13, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655 "2006-05-13T16:59:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/1 "2006-05-13T16:59:28Z")
Gee I enjoyed the FA Cup Final, even though before the first goal I was about to go to bed but deciding it by penalties - yuck. All our work lunchtime competitions decide games (soccer and touch rugby league) by playing extra time with drop-offs (every 2 minutes each team loses a player) - it never takes long for someone to finish on top and seems far less unsatisfying. Because I usually don’t care who wins something like the FA Cup I just feel terrible that in this case West Ham lost, having led twice and hit the post in the last minute of extra time. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/2 "2006-05-14T21:26:32Z")
I posted this in answer to the same question a couple of weeks ago: > [@vetch](#): > > We used to have replays for our cup finals not all that long ago. If the game finished all square they would have to do the whole thing again the following week. Like lots of other things, penalties are a compromise solution. > I think these days most folk want to see a resolution of a match on the day. Very often extra time becomes two teams trying not to lose rather than two teams trying to win, and as a consequence becomes boring. > At least, an element of skill is involved, rather than, say, a toss of the coin, another solution tried on occasions here. > I’m not a fan of penalties though, and would rather see a straight win, although I was happy to see Liverpool win the Champion’s League that way. Strange how we have another Liverpool cup game ending up the same way again this season. I was interested to read about withdrawing players during extra time though because I didn’t realise anyone actually did this. I’ve put forward this idea loads of times in talking ways round the shoot out, I thought I had an original idea. 🙂 By the way, that last minute West Ham effort hitting the post was because Reina made an incredible fingertip save! I have to say though that it was a good game to watch with plenty of flowing end to end football, and for the neutral football fans, a really exciting game. I hope the Champions league final this week is as good and doesn’t end up with penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/3 "2006-05-15T08:50:09Z")
And of course there was another “last minute” incident when the ball fell to poor Harewood, who by that time was barely able to stand up and desperately improvised a shot which unfortunately went nowhere near. Meanwhile Sheringham was looking on helplessly from a couple of yards away… had it only come to him, chances are he’d have buried it and West Ham would have taken the Cup home. Heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![blinkingblinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@blinkingblinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkingblinking)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/4 "2006-05-15T10:36:04Z")
I am not keeping up. When did they stop having a replay for the FA cup final ? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/5 "2006-05-15T10:43:17Z")
> [@blinkingblinking](#): > > I am not keeping up. When did they stop having a replay for the FA cup final ? 1. Yes, it’s a stupid way to do it. But I don’t like the idea of reducing teams, either, because a team which works well _as a team_ is disadvantaged, whereas a team which just happens to have one striker with decent pace could win by hoof-and-hope tactics. Also, you need to have a reducing-team rule which does allow for the score to remain level…at which point do you stop reducing? Do you carry on playing 3-a-side indefinitely? ---
**Author:** ![Chew\_Barker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@Chew\_Barker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chew_Barker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/6 "2006-05-15T11:11:22Z")
I agree that a major final should not be decided with a penalty shoot out. Although I have always enjoyed penalties from a first person point of view. I played as a keeper through school and in various 5-a-side teams, a penalty shoot out gave me the chance to be a hero for once, the pressure on the keeper is nothing compared to what the striker is feeling. I think the budweiser approach could liven things up. > [@](#): > > Added time multi-ball !!! ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/7 "2006-05-15T11:35:47Z")
Yet again, I am hoarse and disbelieving. How many best-finals-ever can we win, exactly? West Ham were excellent, but their goals were sheer excrement and Liverpool didn’t turn up for half an hour. Our first was a great Cup Final goal. The second was an absolute belter. The third … words simply cannot describe it. If I can never see the team of my birth in the city I now live in, Gerrard’s goal was an almighty farewell. And penalties? **You** try scoring against a top class keeper. A penalty competition is an excellent test of technique, nerve and background research. Scoring a penalty against a half-decent amateur keeper in front of a few tens of people is difficult enough - against top class keepers who know your penalty history in a deafening crucible you either have to find the corners _hard_, try some balls-of-steel cheeky feint or just thump it and hope, and a first-two-methods team will beat a third-method team at least 80% of the time IMO. Did losing on penalties make defeat in a final more painful for West Ham than, say, Middlesbrough’s 4-0 drubbing in the UEFA cup final a few days earlier? Surely not. The problem with these “eventual goals from open play” is that due to the sheer exhaustion of both teams, they often involve far more luck than skill - much more so than penalties, as evidenced by players dropping like flies on Saturday. And replays are IMO an enormous anti-climax, an often just _delay_ the penalties anyway. I think penalties are less of a lottery than the match itself, and _certainly_ less so than extra time. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/8 "2006-05-15T13:31:40Z")
While it would be pleasant to stage a replay, there are practical difficulties of booking large venues, clashes with later competitions (here the World Cup looms) and TV coverage. Given that there is already chance in the FA Cup (random draw each round for opponent; random home/away for early rounds), I am quite content to have a penalty shoot-out. It doesn’t tire the players (especially the injured ones), gives a clear result and lets the goalie take centre stage. It’s also pretty memorable - I have no difficulty remembering where I was when Stuart Pearce missed a penalty against Germany. (I also remember Pearce scoring one years later - that was a great feeling.) ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/9 "2006-05-15T13:35:18Z")
Major cup finals should not end in penalty kicks. Period. It is like ending a tie American football game with field goals, or a basketball game with a free throw contest. The winner should be decided on the field, not by which goalkeeper is better at guessing which way to dive. Granted, you may get a three hour match, but it is the last game of the season, the players have the summer to recover. Making, extra time first to score wins would help, too- what’s the use of playing all that extra time if you can still be tied after its over? Also, the players are usually exhausted after 120 minutes anyway, so a goal should be easier to score at this point of the game. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/10 "2006-05-15T14:18:47Z")
I’ll just point out that “guessing right” is a rather inaccurate description of a penalty save from a top class goalkeeper. If that were the case, all keepers would be statistically similar at saving penalties: in fact, some are clearly _exceptional_ in this regard (Pepe Reina had saved an incredible 7 out of 9 before Saturday). The best keepers study their opponent’s history rigorously. More importantly, they look at the eyes of the taker and, more importantly still, the _shape of their hips_ as they prepare to strike the ball. An “open” stance is a clear indication of trying to send the keeper the wrong way. Teddy Sheringham and Steven Gerrard showed exactly how to do this on Saturday - opening your stance at the very last moment. Conversely, the first West Ham penalty taker (and Shevchenko in the CL final) opened far too early and gave themselves away. I’m also a little bemused by the preference for _lucky_ goals from exhausted/ depleted open play over the steel-nerved accurate technique of a well taken penalty (and _at least five_ of them, at that). That was why Golden and even Silver goals were abolished after their experiment, after all! ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/11 "2006-05-15T14:29:41Z")
[snarky hijack] The problem isn’t why to use penalty shoot-outs if there’s a tie. The problem is why there are so many tie games. Especially nil-nil ties. After an hour and a half of good sportmanship–and there’s no fricking score. In other words, _nothing has happened_. You might have well have taken a nap instead of watching the match. Gimme a good American football game. The clock stops too often, but at least you have some points on the board at the end of the game. [/snarky hijack] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/12 "2006-05-15T15:22:14Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > [snarky hijack] > > The problem isn’t why to use penalty shoot-outs if there’s a tie. The problem is why there are so many tie games. Especially nil-nil ties. > After an hour and a half of good sportmanship–and there’s no fricking score. In other words, _nothing has happened_. You might have well have taken a nap instead of watching the match. > Gimme a good American football game. The clock stops too often, but at least you have some points on the board at the end of the game. > [/snarky hijack] > 🙂 I hear ya. The low scoring of soccer lends itself to lots of tie games. Remember the 0:0 title match in the World Cup final played in the U.S.? More goals would definitely help things. They could do something like widen the goals, but that would be taken as a sacrilege I think. So you’ll have to learn to like low-scoring games ending in draws. In fairness, the game that inspired this thread did have six goals in it. Anyway Penalties suck. Who is being penalized anyway? It would make more sense to me to give the tie game to the side that was awarded the most corners during the game. That would force teams to play more offensively. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/13 "2006-05-15T15:34:03Z")
> [@Wee Bairn](#): > > Granted, you may get a three hour match, but it is the last game of the season, the players have the summer to recover. Apart from if one of the teams is in the Champions League final. Or if there’s a little tournament over the summer months, like, ooh, the World Cup. > [@](#): > > Also, the players are usually exhausted after 120 minutes anyway, so a goal should be easier to score at this point of the game. See **SentientMeat** ’s point earlier. > [@Captain Lance Murdoch](#): > > It would make more sense to me to give the tie game to the side that was awarded the most corners during the game. That would force teams to play more offensively. This would be a complete and fundamental change to the game. It goes from “the objective is to score goals” to “the objective is to score goals and force corners”. Plus, you don’t solve the problem entierly - what happens if the corners won are equal, too? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/14 "2006-05-15T15:44:15Z")
Oh Jesus, corners: can you imagine? In the last 20 minutes of a game, one team plays long towards the corners _a la_ Rugby Union and the ball is collected by the striker (_a la_ timewasting today). The objective then is to play the ball off the opponent’s legs for a corner. If successful, what happens then is that 3 or 4 big physical players look for the short corner to lay back to the corner-taker who _again_ tries a deflection off opponent’s legs, _ad infinitum_. Pissing about from a short corner is tedious enough in today’s game where it simply wastes a little time. The consequences of it being _important_ would be unwatchable. Penalties are a rigorous test of nerve and technique. If you want a sport with more points, watch Rugby Union, Rugby League or American Rugby. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/15 "2006-05-15T15:48:50Z")
Only about one in ten games finishes 0-0. The 1994 World Cup Final is the only goalless final of the seventeen[sup]\*[/sup] that have been played and the only one still tied after extra time. - Sixteen if 1950 doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/16 "2006-05-15T15:49:07Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > If you want a sport with more points, watch Rugby Union, Rugby League or American Rugby. Don’t forget Bouncing Netball 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/17 "2006-05-15T15:55:21Z")
And Gloved Rounders. (Which can be pretty low-scoring itself given the length of a match.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/18 "2006-05-15T16:03:03Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And Gloved Rounders. And Padded Figure Skating… (this could go on for a while 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/19 "2006-05-15T16:22:54Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > Only about one in ten games finishes 0-0. The 1994 World Cup Final is the only goalless final of the seventeen[sup]\*[/sup] that have been played and the only one still tied after extra time. > > - Sixteen if 1950 doesn’t count. Why wouldn’t 1950 count? The old NASL used to settle ties by giving players the ball at about the 35 yeard line and five seconds to score form there on the goalie. The goalie could come out and challenge. At least that is how I remember it. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655/20 "2006-05-15T16:27:07Z")
Obviously **SentientMeat** who believes that 90 minutes of football is more of a lottery than a penalty shootout can’t be convinced but the point I was making in the OP is how unsatisfying it is. The penalty shootout takes some minor element of the game, that doesn’t even occur in the huge majority of games (such as the Cup Final) and makes it the deciding factor of the whole match. It’s almost as though after 72 holes in the British Open Tiger Woods and Ernie Els finish 8 under and go decide the winner by playing darts at the pub. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-anyone-think-penalties-is-a-good-way-to-decide-a-real-football-thriller/356655.md?page=2)