# Does atheism have to include nonexistence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2000, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049 "2000-10-24T00:51:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Suo\_Na](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@Suo\_Na](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suo_Na)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/1 "2000-10-24T00:51:50Z")
In the “weirdest reaction” thread some atheists said that you cease to exist after death. Is there no other alternative to heaven/hell than nonexistence? Recently I read Robert J Sawyer’s Factoring Humanity, which includes the concept of a groupmind (kind of a universal unconscious). Why couldn’t this be a life after death in the nonreligious sense? Personally, I’d prefer this kind of explanation. I can’t believe that we cease to exist, but I also can’t believe in heaven or hell. What say you all? ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/2 "2000-10-24T01:26:22Z")
I also say that people can label themselves whatever they want… We have a gay Mormon on this board, there are Log Cabin Republicans and Atheists For Jesus, so why couldn’t there be Atheists for an Afterlife? If someone wants to believe in some kind of afterlife but not base it around a Godhead, they’ll believe it. I don’t know if Sawyer is the only chap to come up with this idea, but I’m sure others have thought about it… * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Six months, two weeks, 23 hours, 27 minutes and 17 seconds. 7919 cigarettes not smoked, saving $989.89. Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 55 minutes. **I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!** \* ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/3 "2000-10-24T01:42:42Z")
Great. A discussion on religion and I get to follow **Satan**. I don’t believe in God. I believe in _something_. What that is I don’t know. And I know for sure that anyone who claims otherwise is full of it. I get around the atheist attitude by simply saying I’m agnostic. Is that the word you’re looking for? ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/4 "2000-10-24T02:29:01Z")
I can only speak for myself, I suppose, but I don’t believe in God because there’s no good evidence that God exists. Since there’s no good evidence that there is any kind of an afterlife, I don’t believe in that, either. You say that you _can’t believe_ that we cease to exist. . . that smacks of argument from incredulity to me. Doesn’t wash. Do you know of any evidence for that groupmind thing? If not, and imagining for the moment that there is an afterlife, why would you expect it to be a groupmind thing rather than, oh, say, your spiritual self winging from one star to another for all eternity? Sure, it’s pleasant to imagine, but what real reason to we have to believe it? ---
**Author:** ![Alpha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Alpha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/5 "2000-10-24T02:34:51Z")
The trouble with a group mind is that it appeals to the same “logic” as having a soul. I.e., that since I don’t want to die, I want some other outcome. Yeah. Well that’s nice. I also want to think one of the lotto tickets I find in the gutter is still valid. If anything is possible, I will win that way. But anything is not possible, so I won’t win that way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/6 "2000-10-24T04:49:09Z")
Oh no! I feel the life draining out of this thread! But if you believe in an afterlife, you might find that it’s soul has risen up to the Great Debates forum. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/7 "2000-10-24T05:12:36Z")
As Satan said, there’s no logical reason to discount survival. But (forestalling a trio of moderators) there is no scientifically verifiable evidence **for** it. On any reasonable Materialistic hypothesis, consciousness and identity are products of the brain, and ceases with its “fatal error.” (Although there is a short period when reboot is possible…) Theist faiths claim to have valid evidence of survival. Those who hold to reincarnation, whether of Eastern faiths or homegrown Brideymurpheyists/Cayceists, also claim the same. And ghost stories abound. Most skeptics, however, will indicate that this material does not stand up to scrutiny. (That point is debatable: some of the reasoning is, if not precisely circular, multi-looped – the assumptions underlying the skeptical discounting of the accounts presuppose the situation surrounding them to be what they conclude from analyzing them on those assumptions.) IMHO, there is adequate evidence for survival to make its investigation worthwhile. This means wading through a great deal of piffle to find the nuggets of truth buried in it. But the stakes are high enough to make that worthwile. YM, as always, MV. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/8 "2000-10-24T05:44:47Z")
People can believe in a God without believing in an afterlife. People can believe in an afterlife without believing in a God. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/9 "2000-10-24T06:05:43Z")
How can you have a godhead without having a personal afterlife? Do you have any examples, or is this just a possibility? ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/10 "2000-10-24T13:58:34Z")
Frankly, the thought that I’m just going to **stop** when I die scares the bejeezus out of me. So I choose to believe in _something_. I don’t know exactly what it is, though. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/11 "2000-10-24T14:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > How can you have a godhead without having a personal afterlife? Pretty easily, actually. God created the Universe. Humans are a naturally evolving anmal posessed of no special connection to that God. As to historical examples, I would imagine that at least some deists have fallen into this category (clockwork Universe, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Modian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Modian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/12 "2000-10-24T14:57:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Frankly, the thought that I’m just going to stop when I die scares the bejeezus out of me. So I choose to believe in something. I don’t know exactly what it is, though. Why does it scare you though? You wouldn’t know you’d stopped, you wouldn’t know anything. 🙂 Thats one of the hardest things to imagine, and why I believe most people believe in an afterlife. It’s already been proven the human mind can’t comprehend complete nothingness. Right now, I’m trying to imagine myself dying and their being nothing. But I can’t do it. I keep “seeing” my thoughts going on, and me being really pissed I died. 😉 Does that mean I believe in an afterlife or anything after death? Nope. I just realize I can’t comprehend it. And here’s another question. How come only humans go to heaven? Why not animals, plants, amoebas, etc? And if they do, that must be one crowded ass place. And if not, why not? We’re all made up of the same stuff, so how come only humans have “souls”? Does us having a larger brain make us that much more superior in that only we have an afterlife? Some say dolphins are as smart as humans, do they have a great ocean in the sky? Just some ramblings from me. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/13 "2000-10-24T15:17:53Z")
I can understand people being afraid of dying–we’re hardwired for that–it’s the survival instinct. However, I personally am not afraid of _being_ dead. I usually explain it like this: when you’re asleep at night, there’s a possiblity you won’t wake up in the morning. You could have a heart attack, somebody could drop an atomic bomb on your house, whatever. So, are you ever afraid while you’re asleep? I don’t mean in a dream, I mean when you are deeply asleep, unconscious–_oblivious_. Unconsciousness or oblivion is not unpleasant, it’s not pleasant, it’s not anything . . . therefore it’s _nothing_ 😉 to be afraid of. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/14 "2000-10-24T17:32:36Z")
I still don’t get why people who believe in God feel they MUST believe in an afterlife, or why people who believe in an afterlife feel they MUST believe in God. I can understand how some people can believe in an afterlife - or, if you will, our souls going to another place, or another dimension, without the assistance of a supreme being. And I can also understand how one can believe in a supreme being who reigns over souls that are temporally finite, just as everything around us is temporally finite. I, for one, don’t believe in either a supreme being or an afterlife, but I don’t see them as the same issue at all. And, by the way, people’s fear of dying hasn’t got a shred of relevance to this question, nor is an inability to imagine oneself dead. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/15 "2000-10-24T18:10:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by panache45 \* > > \*\*I still don’t get why people who believe in God feel they MUST believe in an afterlife, or why people who believe in an afterlife feel they MUST believe in God. \*\* Cecil himself covered that not all religions worry about an afterlife, and as for your latter point, haven’t you been paying attention to this thread? * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Six months, two weeks, one day, 16 hours, 15 minutes and 42 seconds. 7947 cigarettes not smoked, saving $993.39. Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 14 hours, 15 minutes. **I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!** \* ---
**Author:** ![monkeylucifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@monkeylucifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeylucifer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/16 "2000-10-24T21:07:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CnoteChris \* > \*\*I don’t believe in God. I believe in _something_. What that is I don’t know. And I know for sure that anyone who claims otherwise is full of it. > > I get around the atheist attitude by simply saying I’m agnostic. > > Is that the word you’re looking for? \*\* I really don’t like to bandy about the terms _atheist_ and _agnostic_ because I look at them as being completely relative terms. According to Christians, I am an atheist because I don’t believe in “God” but does this mean that I don’t have spiritual beliefs? No, not at all…it’s just that I feel that traditional religious beliefs are antiquated, and spirituality has to be re-examined in the context of the modern era. It is my own personal belief that spirituality should be an individual realization, unaffected by external sources. I feel most Christians cannot or will not take that great step into abstract thought, and therefore, cannot think of “God” or spirituality or an afterlife without using physical quanitifications. Their afterlife is a “place” and God is a “person” while his love is a “thing.” These limitations to me prove that the religion is false because it has all the hallmarks of human creation and not devine invention. Anyhoo…I believe in an “afterlife” but it isn’t heaven, because the afterlife is another state of existence…not a concept of a place within exitence. P.S. If I have to hear another person say “God works in mysterious ways” to explain the wonder of the Christian God, then I’m gonna vomit. Just admit that you don’t have a fucking idea why shit happens sometimes…sheesh, has the Bible been replaced by a collection of bumpersticker quotes??? ---
**Author:** ![bryanmcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@bryanmcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmcc)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/17 "2000-10-24T21:26:30Z")
from polycarp: “That point is debatable: some of the reasoning is, if not precisely circular, multi-looped – the assumptions underlying the skeptical discounting of the accounts presuppose the situation surrounding them to be what they conclude from analyzing them on those assumptions.” i must say, that is the most impressive sentance i’ve read in a long time! ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-atheism-have-to-include-nonexistence/38049/18 "2000-10-26T02:46:18Z")
monkey do you really expect that human words exist for what god really is? No no it is probably unimaginable and therefore undefinable. > [@](#): > > P.S. If I have to hear another person say “God works in mysterious ways” to explain the wonder of the Christian God, then I’m gonna vomit. Just admit that you don’t have a fucking idea why shit happens sometimes…sheesh, has the Bible been replaced by a collection of bumpersticker quotes??? Isint that exactly what thety are admitting?