# Does "Birth Rape" exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995 "2009-10-16T04:37:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/141 "2009-10-20T03:03:20Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t think they’re doing it out of stupidity. It might just be out of fear or pain or whatever. A lot of these experiences sound genuinely violating. If a woman uses the term “birth rape” it might be because she just doesn’t know how else to express herself. I think we can all agree that if a doctor shoves his/her hand into you when you’re crying or begging him/her to stop that that’s a pretty horrifying experience. I don’t think that’s “rape,” but I don’t think it’s helping matters to call a woman stupid for using that term. How about “assault”? Or, if things really get out of hand, try “malpractice?” (Once again, I’m reminded of that poster who claimed she felt gang-raped after she got her ass kicked in the Pit) ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/142 "2009-10-20T03:06:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How about “assault”? Or, if things really get out of hand, try “malpractice?” I agree those are the proper terms to use. I’m just saying that from the point of view of a woman who’s had that happen, she might feel violated. I just don’t think saying she’s stupid and that it’s hard to take what she says seriously because she makes the mistake of using the wrong term to describe her ordeal is fair. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/143 "2009-10-20T03:16:22Z")
But it IS hard to take her claim seriously. And I think I find it insulting as well as disgusting, because it trivializes actual rape. (And as others have stated, a lot of the descriptions on those websites were of perfectly normal experiences, NOT with insensitive professionals) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/144 "2009-10-20T03:20:12Z")
I think the term rape is only used because it is so negatively charged by society. It’s only an added bonus that the actual crime superficially resembles rape. But I have to agree that such hyperbole often backfires, causing people to take you less seriously. BTW, I thought this thread was going to be about how the baby was raping you by being inside you. “Birth rape” meaning “The doctor touched my privates without permission” seems wrong. So that means it’s only superficially related to both birth and rape. I could understand a single person calling that because of the emotional trauma. But surely someone along the line would realize it doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/145 "2009-10-20T03:41:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I. I don’t think that’s “rape,” but I don’t think it’s helping matters to call a woman stupid for using that term. No, but its fun to do. If I go on a tirade about high taxes and how I am being “income raped”, you gonna take me seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/146 "2009-10-20T04:01:42Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > No, but its fun to do. > > If I go on a tirade about high taxes and how I am being “income raped”, you gonna take me seriously? You don’t see a difference between that and someone assaulting your genitals? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/147 "2009-10-20T05:01:21Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You don’t see a difference between that and someone assaulting your genitals? OMG! Does that mean that, when I was in junior high and my brother kneed me in the groin when I wouldn’t give him the channel changer(classic G.I. Joe vs. Transformers argument), he _raped_ me? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/148 "2009-10-20T05:22:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > OMG! Does that mean that, when I was in junior high and my brother kneed me in the groin when I wouldn’t give him the channel changer(classic G.I. Joe vs. Transformers argument), he _raped_ me? No. I’m just saying that the birth experiences are a lot more painful and traumatic than someone just kneeing you in the groin, and I think that the attitude of “It wasn’t rape–get over it” isn’t good. It’s not rape, no, but they’re definitely experiences that could scar a person. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/149 "2009-10-20T05:42:04Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > No. I’m just saying that the birth experiences are a lot more painful and traumatic than someone just kneeing you in the groin, and I think that the attitude of “It wasn’t rape–get over it” isn’t good. It’s not rape, no, but they’re definitely experiences that could scar a person. So could a “support” group that convinces people that that they have been raped when in fact they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/150 "2009-10-20T05:52:51Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I agree those are the proper terms to use. I’m just saying that from the point of view of a woman who’s had that happen, she might feel violated. I just don’t think saying she’s stupid and that it’s hard to take what she says seriously because she makes the mistake of using the wrong term to describe her ordeal is fair. And I don’t think that it’s fair to describe what a doctor did because he thought it was best for you and/or for the child you’re there to deliver as “rape”. Almost any medical experience can be traumatic. That doesn’t mean that what was done was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/151 "2009-10-20T06:11:47Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And I don’t think that it’s fair to describe what a doctor did because he thought it was best for you and/or for the child you’re there to deliver as “rape”. > > Almost any medical experience can be traumatic. That doesn’t mean that what was done was wrong. Well, I think the problem is that there’s a variety of experiences being described. The one of the midwife scraping away at cervical skin without a glove on is pretty horrifying and unnecessary. But examples of doctors doing a c-section without explaining it probably don’t fall into it. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/152 "2009-10-20T09:19:29Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > You know, people seem awfully hung up on the “sex organs” thing (in fact, tllde seems to insist that it’s the involvement of the “sex organs” that qualifies this as “rape”) when I’d wager that no woman has ever thought of her vagina as a “sex organ” while there was a head squeezing out of it. If you made that wager, you’d lose. There is a concept called orgasmic birth, which is exactly what it sounds like. There are plenty of women who are very well aware of the sexual connection to the birthing process and to life itself. > [@](#): > > IMO you’d have to be a special kind of crazy to decide that you were “raped”, and not that the doctor, what with his years of training and significantly better view, realized that NOT doing an episiotomy would result in tearing. Barring the need for vacuum extraction, forceps delivery, unexpected breech or an existing tear which will meet the rectum imminently, current best practices say never cut an episiotomy. Never. Natural tearing is preferred, for a variety of reasons. But episiotomy rates in some parts of the U.S. are still over 30% and some doctors cut more than half of their patients. It should also be noted that perineal preparation throughout pregnancy, mother-directed rather than doctor-directed pushing, biologically appropriate – i.e. not lithotomy – positioning and proper perineal support during pushing all do wonders to reducing tearing and often eliminating it entirely, but those are too time intensive for active labor management-wed U.S. hospital based physicians. > [@NinjaChick](#): > > This is completely stupid. > > 1. Rape is forcible sexual ‘intrusion’. If someone holds a woman down and gropes her vaginal area in a sexual manner, it’s arguably rape. If someone drugs a woman for the sole intent of having non-consensual intercourse with her, it’s rape. If a doctor forcibly jams his hand up a woman’s vagina in a medical procedure, that’s not sexual. It’s not right and it is medical assault and battery, but it’s not sexual intrusion. This assumes that we know the doctor’s intent, first and foremost, which in some cases is questionable. Also, it draws an interesting line. Rape is often used as a political tool, and a means of coercion because of its power to humiliate, dehumanize and force compliance, with no particular sexual intent on the part of the perpetrator. Does the sexual component have to exist in the mind of the perpetrator? Does the _victim’s_ perception of a sexual violation matter at all? > [@DianaG](#): > > Almost any medical experience can be traumatic. That doesn’t mean that what was done was wrong. And in the cases where this phrase is being used, by and large, what was done _was_ wrong, on ethical and humane grounds if not necessarily legal ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/153 "2009-10-20T13:53:51Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Does the _victim’s_ perception of a sexual violation matter at all? _Alleged_ victim, actually, and that’s the critical element. Without an objective standard of some kind, simply calling oneself a victim doesn’t (and shouldn’t) automatically prove a crime occurred. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/154 "2009-10-20T14:28:01Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Shake a little harder, the fetus isn’t the one paying the bill. I believe ability to pay is not a requirement for emergency medical treatment in the US. I also believe the parents are usually responsible to pay for the medical bills incured by their children. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/155 "2009-10-20T14:33:42Z")
There are many forms of being used, not being treated as a person, what we call rape is a sexual form of it, but the same thing can be done nonsexually. It is IMHO forceful violation of the eternal soul, though the person being violated may be able to guard their soul and just have their non-eternal flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/156 "2009-10-20T22:39:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There are many forms of being used, not being treated as a person, what we call rape is a sexual form of it, but the same thing can be done nonsexually. It is IMHO forceful violation of the eternal soul, though the person being violated may be able to guard their soul and just have their non-eternal flesh. **Kanicbird** , WTF does this have to do with the topic? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/157 "2009-10-20T23:31:00Z")
I’m trying to figure out why I’m having such a hard time understanding this topic. Of course, I realize that nobody should have physical things done to them against their will, and I realize that the genitals are a sensitive area for both men and women. But my overall perspective on this issue comes from a different place. My wife is finally pregnant, due in December, after years of trying. We’ve been through infertility treatments and several miscarriages. Recently, the nurse-midwife told us that because of certain risk factors there is an 80% chance that my wife will have to deliver via C-section. Some pregnant women, it seems, would have been annoyed. Not us – we took it in stride. The ONLY outcome we want is a healthy mother and baby. We’ve gone through so much trouble and heartache to get this baby, nothing that happens on the day of the birth itself could be a disappointment if we come out with a healthy baby. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/158 "2009-10-21T22:09:46Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > We’ve gone through so much trouble and heartache to get this baby, nothing that happens on the day of the birth itself could be a disappointment if we come out with a healthy baby. That’s easy to say before the fact, it’s also easy to say from the remove of not being the woman who has been on the receiving end of treatment that she’s felt to be an assault or excessively invasive or outright dismissive of her bodily autonomy. And considering that a c-section is _major open abdominal surgery_ with all the attendant risks of major surgery including anesthesia problems, infection or worse, I’m pretty sure that there are _some_ outcomes that could be disappointing to you and even moreso, for your wife. I hope that doesn’t come to pass, but it’s an eventuality that you need to be prepared for especially with such high odds of a c-section in your near future. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/159 "2009-10-22T04:50:07Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I’m trying to figure out why I’m having such a hard time understanding this topic. > > Of course, I realize that nobody should have physical things done to them against their will, and I realize that the genitals are a sensitive area for both men and women. > > But my overall perspective on this issue comes from a different place. My wife is finally pregnant, due in December, after years of trying. We’ve been through infertility treatments and several miscarriages. > > Recently, the nurse-midwife told us that because of certain risk factors there is an 80% chance that my wife will have to deliver via C-section. Some pregnant women, it seems, would have been annoyed. Not us – we took it in stride. The ONLY outcome we want is a healthy mother and baby. We’ve gone through so much trouble and heartache to get this baby, nothing that happens on the day of the birth itself could be a disappointment if we come out with a healthy baby. The difference is that the Nurse-midwife is TALKING TO YOU about it. IN ADVANCE. Almost like “informing” or something, or maybe even getting “informed consent”. Wow. She’s not waiting until your wife has been in labor for 15 hours, is in pain, and you’re worried, to say that “Well, we knew that you’d probably have a c-section (but didn’t feel like telling you), because of XYZ (that we didn’t tell you about or anything, because we’re the doctors) and if you don’t agree RIGHT NOW, your baby will DIE. Yes, we knew about this ahead of time, but it doesn’t matter what the risks are. In fact, if you don’t agree, we’ll get a court order on behalf of the unborn to force you to undergo surgery. We don’t care what you think, feel, or want. Decide now,” as they wheel your wife out of your sight. Sounds like you have a good provider that is informing you of statistics, likelihoods, and probably even risk factors. Congratulations on your excellent choice of a good and ethical provider, and I hope that you and your wife have a healthy, happy baby with no problems, and a trouble and risk free surgery (if required). ---
**Author:** ![opossum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2bfe46/32.png) [@opossum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/opossum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995/160 "2009-10-22T05:25:46Z")
While “rape” may be an exaggeration (and may be insensitive to victims of sexual battery), I can understand the sentiment. A few days shy of 16 months ago I was at a major teaching hospital with my wife for the birth of our first child. She was a week overdue (no other problems) and they scheduled an induction. We went in the night before, and they immediately put her on IV, foetal monitors and a urinary catheter so she could could not get out of bed. We had a parade of doctors and students through all the next day, all saying it was going “slow but steady,” as they increased her petossin to the maximum and gave her an epidural. Until the night shift attending physician came on duty at 6 pm. The attending clearly had some plans that evening other than waiting around through a slow (but steady!) labor. She tried the soft sell first. “Lots of women choose to have c-sections these days, don’t you want to get this over with?” When that didn’t work, she played her trump card – “do you want your baby to be in the NICU?” Keep in mind there was nothing actually wrong. It was just going slowly. We fought some after that, bought a few more hours, but with a gun to our unborn baby’s head it was basically all over but the shouting. How can any parents not relent in the face of that? If there’s a real danger it’s one thing, but this was not the case of a kindly doctor informing their patient of a risk, or a doctor rushing to save a life – it was a doctor using her authority and power to get what she wanted. A few hours later, they wheeled her off (yes, hours. they made us believe it was an emergency but once they had her signature on the consent form, there was no urgency. We watched the door, expecting them to burst in at any moment) It was even worse in the ER. My wife cried the entire time. The anesthetic did not work well. She was feeling every cut and stitch. I had to push my thumbs into her shoulders to to try to relieve the referred pain she was feeling there, and hold her arms so she wouldn’t reach into the incision. So they gave her more drugs, and she does not remember the first time she saw her daughter. Being a teaching hospital, the attending used my wife’s body to teach a history lesson about c-section sutures, until I told them to stop. It should have been one of the best nights of her life, but it was probably the worst. As for the doctor, the maternity ward was clear by midnight, so she got what she wanted. Since then. We have a beautiful, smart daughter. But our family is hanging by a thread. My wife is angry all the time. Much of it is directed at me, for not somehow preventing the c-section. The one time she agreed to go to a counselor, she was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, but is not and will not get any treatment for it. She is still in pain from the surgery, but will not see a doctor because she no longer trusts them. I’m walking on eggshells – if I mention my daughter’s “birthday,” for example, I get a torrent of rage, e.g. “she wasn’t born she was ripped out of me, and you sat there and let them do it.” Anything can set it off. Don’t know how long this is going to last. So I understand if a woman who went through something similar calls it “rape.” It’s techincally not rape, but I think the impact can be the same. I ran across the OP’s link a year or so ago while looking for help for my wife, and wasn’t put off by it at all. There’s a group in the US called the International Caesarean Action Network that uses less strident language, if anyone’s looking. Also, Ricki Lake made a documentary about the problem of unnecessary iatrogenic c-sections that I wish to God we’d seen before heading to that damned hospital. We trusted doctors then. My wife has a BS in biology, and I grew up with two grandparents and an uncle who were physicians. Now, not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-birth-rape-exist/513995.md?page=9)