# Does blackboxvoting.org have hard evidence fraud took place in Tuesday's election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182 "2004-11-05T14:29:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Capa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/21 "2004-11-05T23:03:03Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html) bloops ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/22 "2004-11-05T23:30:40Z")
> [@Capa](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html) > bloops That’s proof of an **error.** It’s not **fraud** unless somebody can prove it resulted from intentional rigging, not just a glitch. But, come to think of it, I haven’t seen any stories about an e-voting machine mistakenly inflating the vote for Kerry. Blind errors should cut both ways, shouldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/23 "2004-11-06T00:29:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > IF its hackable (something I’ve seen no evidence of…certainly I’ve seen no evidence that they WERE hacked) You haven’t been paying attention, then. [Chimp can hack Diebold Electronic Voting System](http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/24/2046234&tid=103&tid=172&tid=17&tid=219) [How to change Diebold results with a five-line Visual Basic script](http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/22/1515251&tid=226&tid=126&tid=103&tid=17) [Vote tabulator security hole exposed [url=http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/30/1631243&tid=103&tid=126&tid=17]Maryland Electronic Voting System Found Vulnerable](http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/30/2322208&tid=172&tid=1&tid=219) > [@xtisme](#): > > then fix the problem, don’t toss out the technology. Sure. Except, for some reason, the companies who make these flawed systems keep dragging their feet when asked to fix them. Gosh, you’d _think_ they’d want to make a verifiably secure system so customers would buy them by the truckload, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![guestforever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@guestforever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guestforever)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/24 "2004-11-06T03:19:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Please, major news organizations. Dive into the fray! How sweet it would be if Dan Rather could announce that CBS had hard proof that the Ohio election was stolen at the instructions of Bush! Diebold should publicly release the source code for their machines. And Bush should appoint a special prosecutor with power to investigate this fully and independently. You are presenting a parody dream, with a touch of sardonic humor, no? btw, perhaps kenneth star (‘independent’ council) would volunteer. Yeah, that would make my dream complete… ---
**Author:** ![The\_world\_s\_most\_deadliest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@The\_world\_s\_most\_deadliest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_world_s_most_deadliest)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/25 "2004-11-06T03:42:12Z")
It doesn’t matter if those 4,000 extra votes are a result of fraud or a result of error. The problem is that it happened, regardless of intent, and there’s a much better chance of finding more problems than of this incident being completely isolated. A voting system this unreliable - and I’m counting electronic voting problems along with unorganized and untrained voting staff, lack of voting booths, provisional ballots and their legal status, etc. - does hurt everyone, regardless of party affiliation. I don’t see how certain people can tell Democrats to quit whining about possible voting error, when if it is truly error and not fraud, they should want to get to the bottom of it as much as anyone else. After all, it could have as easily swung against your favor, right? Don’t you want to make sure that it couldn’t happen in the future? Honestly, when I hear the “sour grapes” refrain, it seems that some are basically stating that it doesn’t matter, because the outcome favored their own interests. Not only does it come across as petty and childish, it could easily turn around and bite you on the ass. It is in every Republican’s interest as well as every Democrat’s to demand a revision to the voting system that encompasses accuracy, privacy and accountibility. A quote sometimes attributed to Stalin goes: “Those who cast the votes decide nothing; those who count the votes decide everything.” No one’s sure if he said it or not, but its the truth. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/26 "2004-11-06T04:35:08Z")
All companies making voting machine software (there are five major ones) have said that they will make their code open source if all four other companies do so first. Of course, this means it will never happen. The solution is to kick private companies out of the business and instead have a government office that produces the code. Then pass a law saying that the government must post the code on the web at least a month before the election is held. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/27 "2004-11-06T05:00:47Z")
**ITR champion** , That sounds good, but the problem is that when I go to the polling place I don’t know whether or not the code running on the machine is the code that’s posted on the web. ---
**Author:** ![Spree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Spree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spree)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/28 "2004-11-06T05:52:40Z")
If it’s agreed that any ONE system has its flaws, then why not put every vote through a double-count system, using two different methods? For example, touch screens can be used, with a paper receipt generated and submitted to verify the touch screen. Then, the paper receipt can be either hand counted, or perhaps run through a scanner (using a bar code, maybe?). Yes, it would be tedious, but wouldn’t any two different count methods help catch potential error coming one method alone? I guess I don’t know the logistics involved, but I for one would be content to wait a little longer for an automatic “recount” if I thought it would help cut down on the chances of fraud and/or error. ---
**Author:** ![tryout1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@tryout1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tryout1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/29 "2004-11-06T06:03:08Z")
Possibly relevant article from _Slate_: [http://slate.msn.com/id/2109141/](http://slate.msn.com/id/2109141/) And some links from the article: > [@](#): > > But there were also several dozen voters in six states — particularly Democrats in Florida — who said the wrong candidates appeared on their touch-screen machine’s checkout screen, the coalition said. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/ap/20041103/ap\_on\_el\_pr/eln\_electronic\_voting](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=738&e=1&u=/ap/20041103/ap_on_el_pr/eln_electronic_voting) > [@](#): > > Around 2:15 this morning, I received a frantic call from a friend who was doing GOTV for the Kerry campaign in Florida over the last week. She handed the phone to a man named Andy Cohen, a Californian, who was in charge of operations. Here’s what he had to say about working in Florida: “I was what they call the ‘staging location director’ for part of the Kerry campaign in West Palm, responsible for field operations in a [primarily] African-American community. We had four different types of voter irregularities.” Cohen went onto say that he was working at the Bethune Elementary school. They had the new touch-screen computers. “But after a vote for Kerry,” he said, "at the end, [the screen] would appear with a vote for Bush, they would blank it out and they would re-do it – they would unplug the machine and redo it… [http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2004/11/index.html#004693](http://www.prospect.org/weblog/archives/2004/11/index.html#004693) What is the strongest argument _against_ maintaining some kind of paper trail? If we never need it, great. If somebody alleges a bad count, it’s easy to resolve the question in a straightforward way. What’s not to like? ---
**Author:** ![tryout1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6de8d8/32.png) [@tryout1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tryout1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/30 "2004-11-06T06:39:42Z")
Also possibly relevant: > [@](#): > > An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said. > [@](#): > > In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost in Tuesday’s election because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did. [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/11/05/politics1149EST0515.DTL](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/11/05/politics1149EST0515.DTL) ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/31 "2004-11-06T07:03:16Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > All companies making voting machine software (there are five major ones) have said that they will make their code open source if all four other companies do so first. Of course, this means it will never happen. The solution is to kick private companies out of the business and instead have a government office that produces the code. Then pass a law saying that the government must post the code on the web at least a month before the election is held. Problem solved. Lets keep the govt out of the business of creating the machines/software. Instead, govt just sets standards and certifies that a companies machine/software passes certification. Standard #1: Hardware specs/software must be open and publicly available. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/32 "2004-11-06T07:50:49Z")
[http://www.accuracy.org/new.htm](http://www.accuracy.org/new.htm) Was the Ohio Vote Honest and Fair? > **[Greg Palast: Investigative Reporter](https://www.gregpalast.com/)** > > Greg Palast has broken stories for BBC TV's Newsnight, The Guardian, Nation Magazine and Rolling Stone. Kerry Won. Here Are the Facts ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/33 "2004-11-06T07:53:53Z")
[http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-38.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-38.htm) The Ultimate Felony Against Decmocracy, by Thom Hartman ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/34 "2004-11-06T13:37:17Z")
If you believe that the elections in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico were not rigged, I would like to show you some valuable swampland. Such simple measures as having too few machines in black areas= hard to prove intent but so effective in supressing the will of the people. We’ve had two consecutive stolen elections. Time for riots in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/35 "2004-11-06T14:31:15Z")
**BobLibDem** , I feel your anger and I’ve felt similar impulses but I won’t give in to them because I don’t believe that violence will make things any better; different maybe, but not better. Peaceful demonstrations or maybe even civil disobedience, yes. But not riots. One important thing we have to do is to fix our damn electoral process. To do that, we have to show that the current media meme “it went without a hitch” is just flat out wrong. People are trying to do that as I type. See [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5462355) for an example. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/36 "2004-11-06T15:59:33Z")
> [@tryout1](#): > > What is the strongest argument _against_ maintaining some kind of paper trail? Cost, I guess. From [http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger:](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger:) > [@](#): > > The principal proposed security safeguard for the DRE system was invented, but not patented, ten years ago by computer scientist Rebecca Mercuri, now a research fellow at Harvard. In her solution, after voters record their choices on the touch-screen, they confirm them on a paper ballot that appears under glass and then push a button to cast the vote, causing the machine to deposit the paper ballot in a box that will hold it for recounting if that is ordered. The printer for the paper ballots for each voting machine should cost about $50; the total add-on could be $300-$600. IMO, an extra $300-$600 per machine is a small price to pay for a verifiable vote record (assuming we’re going to use the silly machines at all when a system of optically scannable paper ballots, like SAT test forms, would be just as efficient and much cheaper and create its own paper trail). ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/37 "2004-11-06T17:27:49Z")
The evidence I have seen at [blackboxvoting.org](http://blackboxvoting.org) proves at least two things: (assuming that the presented evidence is not an outright fabrication) - The Diebold voting machines have **no protection** against fraud. - There are actual cases where the **audit logs** of the Diebold voting machines were found to be **inconsistent**. Neither of which is proof of fraud. But either of which is sufficient proof that these machines are not ready for use in their present state. Actually, there is a third factor that I get away from [blackboxvoting.org](http://blackboxvoting.org) and other cites, and it is this: - There is **rampant stupidity, incompetence and cavalier attitude** surrounding the use of electronic voting machines at the present time. There was in fact a case where Diebold tried to put a simple password protection on an audit trail in a voting machine. They didn’t do it because people (other than Diebold personnel) **wanted** the capability to mess around with the audit trail. (Audit trail is not the same as voting record.) Pretty stupid, right? Pretty stupid, too, if a machine fails because of lack of storage space or stuff like that. And pretty criminally cavalier to suggest “reformatting” as a remedy! I think as a minimum the software for electronic voting should be open source, so that it will be pored over by as many people as possible. It should incorporate multiple checks and balances (like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265318)). The big question is, why don’t people demand this as a matter of course? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/38 "2004-11-06T20:03:10Z")
I am not one big on conspiracy theories. But I guess anything’s possible. Never say never, and all that. However, it seems like the exit polls [sucked.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23580-2004Nov3.html) > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, new problems surfaced: a 2 1/2-hour data blackout and samples that at one point or another included too many women, too few Westerners, not enough Republicans and a lead for Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry in the national survey that persisted until late in the evening. > > In two instances on election night – the results for Virginia and South Carolina – the networks held off projecting a winner when voting ended because exit polls showed that the races were too close to call, only to see President Bush win easily in both states. Does anyone really believe that South Carolina was going to be a “too close to call” state? It’s strong Bush country. Yet the exit polls were showing it too close to call for a while. Does anyone believe that a higher percentage of women voted than men? (One report I heard—no cite here giving the percentage, sorry—was talking about something like 60% women from the exit polls.) The exit polls [sucked](http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041104/news_1n4exit.html). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/39 "2004-11-06T21:13:55Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > **BobLibDem** , > I feel your anger and I’ve felt similar impulses but I won’t give in to them because I don’t believe that violence will make things any better; different maybe, but not better. Peaceful demonstrations or maybe even civil disobedience, yes. But not riots. > One important thing we have to do is to fix our damn electoral process. To do that, we have to show that the current media meme “it went without a hitch” is just flat out wrong. People are trying to do that as I type. See [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5462355) for an example. I’m not in favor of violence yet. But the system is clearly broken. We can’t gain power through the ballot box because they rig the elections. There are a limited number of peaceful avenues. These must be pursued. A million man march before Inauguration Day would be a good start. Getting conventional media to pick up this story and run with it would be another. We need someone with resources and patience like the NYT or WP. We need some courageous whistle blowers from Diebold. We need the disenfranchised in Ohio to march on Columbus. It’s ridiculous in 2004 that black precincts have 5 hour waits to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/40 "2004-11-06T22:25:52Z")
I have absolutely zero doubt that they cheated in places and played extremely dirty. However, the cruel reality is that even if they hadn’t, they won big enough that they didn’t really have to. Get over it. Stealing elections is only a concern worth fighting about if its close, and it wasn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182.md?page=3)