# Does blackboxvoting.org have hard evidence fraud took place in Tuesday's election? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182 "2004-11-05T14:29:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/121 "2004-11-15T01:10:03Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > So, any proof yet? Well, there’s evidence. To review: U of Penn researcher Freeman took raw exit polling data accidentally posted on the CNN website. The chances that random error would cause the reported divergence between the exit polls and final tallies are essentially nil. That doesn’t prove fraud though. There could be systematic problems in the exit polling, despite the fact that these sorts of polls have been fairly reliable in the past. We won’t know unless the data is released. Separately, touchscreen voting is susceptible to hacking that can’t be directly detected. I call upon all parties -Republicans, Democrats and Naderites- to support efforts to cleanse this situation of its inherent vulnerabilities to fraud. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/122 "2004-11-15T01:28:57Z")
Well, there was my link earlier in the thread where CALTECH/MIT VOTING TECHNOLOGY PROJECT (their caps btw, not mine) said in summary: > [@](#): > > 1. A series of claims have been made in recent days alleging that discrepancies between exit poll results and the presidential vote in certain states provides evidence of malfeasance in those states. These claims seem to be concentrated on states using electronic voting systems. > > 2. Exit polls predicted a significantly greater vote for Kerry nationwide than the official returns confirmed, but there is not any apparent systematic bias when we take this same analysis to the state level. > > 3. Analysis of deviations between the exit polls and the official returns show no particular patterns for states using electronic voting; nor does this analysis reveal any patterns for states using other forms of voting systems. > > **4. We conclude that there is no evidence, based on exit polls, that electronic voting machines were used to steal the 2004 election for President Bush.** I notice no one had much to say about it one way or the other. -XT ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/123 "2004-11-15T11:58:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I notice no one had much to say about it one way or the other. Perhaps that’s because the issues as to whether fraud occurred, and if it did or didn’t whether we should go with a system in which fraud is easy and undetectable, is much much larger than whether or not Bush would have won anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/124 "2004-11-15T13:31:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > BTW, FWIW, my guess is that it was a state agency that put out the RFP, that they didn’t define their requirements well (probably not really understanding all of the ramifications that have been brought up since), and that they went with the lowest bidder, instead of the best technical design or the one with the most secure features. Regrettable (burns me up when WE lose contracts to someone who underbids us but has a less viable technical solution) but its how our current system works. One need not go into elaborate conspiracy theories when simple incompetence and government bureaucracy will suffice as an explanation. > > -XT yes. but. When you have two powerful organizations (the Repub and Dem parties) that have a long record of perpetrating voter fraud because they have such overwhelming interest in the outcome of elections, you’d be a damned fool not to look hard at conspiracies to commit vote fraud via this new tech. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/125 "2004-11-15T13:42:13Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > U of Penn researcher Freeman took raw exit polling data accidentally posted on the CNN website. > > The chances that random error would cause the reported divergence between the exit polls and final tallies are essentially nil. > > That doesn’t prove fraud though. There could be systematic problems in the exit polling, despite the fact that these sorts of polls have been fairly reliable in the past. > > We won’t know unless the data is released. To pick some nits: – Freeman concedes that he did not have raw exit poll data on pg 2 of his report (linked above in this thread). – Freeman is decidedly dismissive of fraud allegations on pg 11 of his report. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/126 "2004-11-17T05:55:22Z")
In Volusia County: > [@](#): > > Dueling lawyers, election officials gnashing teeth, [Votergate.tv](http://Votergate.tv) film crew catching it all [http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show\_topic&forum=104&topic\_id=2704906](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2704906) If this isn’t total fiction then it’s very disturbing. They claim to have video. If so we’ll probably be seeing it soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/127 "2004-11-17T06:10:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > In Volusia County: > [http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show\_topic&forum=104&topic\_id=2704906](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2704906) > If this isn’t total fiction then it’s very disturbing. They claim to have video. If so we’ll probably be seeing it soon enough. That link is very slow to respond at the moment (I think it’s getting a lot of attention). If you’re having trouble with it, the whole story is also available [here](http://www.blackboxvoting.org); scroll down to where it says “TUESDAY NOV 16 2004: Volusia County on lockdown” in red. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/128 "2004-11-17T06:22:52Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > To pick some nits: You may have overstated it somewhat: I’ll give Freeman’s quotes. – Freeman concedes that he did not have raw exit poll data on pg 2 of his report (linked above in this thread). True, M4M should not have called it raw data. Freeman: “All of the 2004 exit poll data that I [Freeman] use here is unofficial, not meant to be released directly to the public… Material for the chart comes from Jonathon Simon, a former exit poll analyst, who collected and tabulated data from the CNN website before the data changed.” – Freeman is decidedly dismissive of fraud allegations on pg 11 of his report. Not IMHO. Freeman: “My purpose in this paper, however, has not been to allege election theft, let alone explain it. Rather, I have tried to demonstrate that exit poll data is fundamentally sound, that the deviations between exit poll predictions and vote tallies in the three critical battleground states could not have occurred strictly by chance or random error, and that no solid explanations have yet been provided to explain the discrepancy”. … “Systematic fraud is a premature conclusion, but the election’s unexplained exit poll discrepancies make it an unavoidable hypothesis, one that is the responsibility of the media, academia, polling agencies, and the public to investigate.” That doesn’t sound like a dismissal to me. I agree though that characterization is a tricky art; I, for one, have not mastered it. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/129 "2004-11-17T18:33:54Z")
Let me see if I have this straight. There is wide spread voter fraud over at least 11 states across the entire nation, over hundreds of counties and thousands of voting districts, run by both Democrats and Republicans. God know how many thousands of people it took to perpetrate this crime, but some how, they all keep it a secret. Not a word has escaped. Years in the making and not one word got out. I can’t fart here in my cube without someone five floors away hearing about it in three minutes, but this voter fraud for the Presidency is kept air tight. What’s more, Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy and Clinton and rest of the high power Dems are somehow too stupid or timid to bring this “vast right wing conspiracy” to light. Do I have this about right? Do you hear yourselves?? Please Dems, please, keep dreaming about these fairytales for at least the next four years, until the next “voter fraud” is complete. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/130 "2004-11-17T19:00:05Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Let me see if I have this straight, etc. > > Please Dems, please, keep dreaming about these fairytales for at least the next four years, until the next “voter fraud” is complete. Ah, mockery. The reactive stance of every good conservative. I said it before- if you think throwing a well-placed monkey wrench into the voting machinery of a few key states is beyond Karl Rove’s grasp, you are living a charmed existence indeed. Did someone say fairy tales? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/131 "2004-11-17T19:12:18Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Let me see if I have this straight. There is wide spread voter fraud over at least 11 states across the entire nation, over hundreds of counties and thousands of voting districts, run by both Democrats and Republicans. God know how many thousands of people it took to perpetrate this crime, but some how, they all keep it a secret. Not a word has escaped. Years in the making and not one word got out. I can’t fart here in my cube without someone five floors away hearing about it in three minutes, but this voter fraud for the Presidency is kept air tight. What’s more, Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy and Clinton and rest of the high power Dems are somehow too stupid or timid to bring this “vast right wing conspiracy” to light. Do I have this about right? Do you hear yourselves?? Please Dems, please, keep dreaming about these fairytales for at least the next four years, until the next “voter fraud” is complete. You’re in DC? You must be one of the 15 or 16 votes Bush got there. First, please do not extrapolate some people claiming fraud to all ‘Dems.’ I don’t think there was anything above noise-level fraud that there is in all elections, unless and until I hear something much more substantive than I have. And if you think there has ever been a national election without any fraud, you’re living a fairy tale. I don’t think there was anything that could even begin to turn the tide of the presidential election, unless amazing new evidence comes along. Second, fraud could easily occur without a centralized organizer. Many people could have independently decided to perpetrate fraud locally. Third, and most important, ABSENCE OF FRAUD THIS TIME DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD NOT QUESTION THE SYSTEM. Do you get that? This time we got LUCKY. We know we have machines that are easy to hack, and that are untraceable. Everyone should be outraged, unless they secretly want fraud and are comfortable that it will go their way. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/132 "2004-11-17T19:53:01Z")
Bup, I THINK THAT WE SHOULD ALWAYS QUESTION THE SYSTEM. But have you read these posts? These are some (and yes I believe a minority) that think there should be violence to overturn this election because there is no doubt that it was stolen. Moody Bastard thinks all Karl Rove has to do is write a memo on White House stationary and it’s a done deal. And do you think that there has been nationwide voter fraud? You said you thought so. That implies a concerted effort, centralized across the nation. Two or three people not working in concert attempting to commit fraud at places around the country does not mark nation wide voting fraud. Why can’t this happen? Because it would mean the end of the party (Dem or REP) of it was found out that that was planned and carried out. Honestly, it amazes that people can’t imagine that Bush had 3.5M more votes than Kerry did out of the population of $280M, when, virtually no poll had him losing at any point prior to the election. But they can believe that a vast right wing conspiracy has taken place to steal the election, which would shake the nation to its very foundation. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/133 "2004-11-17T20:13:08Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > These are some (and yes I believe a minority) OK, just please don’t call that minority “Dems” anymore. > [@spifflog](#): > > And do you think that there has been nationwide voter fraud? You said you thought so. I did? Where? A national election in which some fraud occurred is not the same thing as nationwide fraud. Maybe I should have just left out the bit about noise-level fraud for the sake of simplicity. I think every nationwide election in the history of the US has had at least a few jerks who either voted twice, or acted as judges and changed a few votes, or scared people out of voting, etc. This year was no different. You said as much in the couple of sentences immediately after you said I said there had been nationwide voter fraud. > [@spifflog](#): > > Why can’t [nationwide coordinated fraud] happen? Because it would mean the end of the party (Dem or REP) of it was found out that that was planned and carried out. I guess I’m more cynical than you, or you’re living in more of a fairytale world than me. It wouldn’t spell the end of the Republicans. There’d be Orwellian droning repetition of whatever the spin was and the Republicans would survive. Democrats? Maybe. I’d hope it’d spell the end of Democrats, but inertia is a powerful force. > [@spifflog](#): > > Honestly, it amazes that people can’t imagine that Bush had 3.5M more votes than Kerry did out of the population of $280M Oh, come on - we’re worth more than that! ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/134 "2004-11-17T20:32:24Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Moody Bastard thinks all Karl Rove has to do is write a memo on White House stationary and it’s a done deal. You left out that he writes it in virgin’s blood. But yes, that’s the gist. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/135 "2004-11-17T22:05:01Z")
> [@bup](#): > > We know we have machines that are easy to hack … I don’t think they are easy to hack – that certainly hasn’t been shown. Demonstrations by Bev Harris and others have not simulated the conditions of an actual election. … **Moody Bastard** , I think you give Rove way too much credit. I’ll agree to disagree with you on the extent of his power. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/136 "2004-11-18T00:04:32Z")
For something as important as an election, I’d _like_ to believe that we start off assuming the system is easy to corrupt, and then request the manufacturer(s) demonstrate to our satisfaction that it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/137 "2004-11-18T03:06:49Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, there was my link earlier in the thread where CALTECH/MIT VOTING TECHNOLOGY PROJECT (their caps btw, not mine) said in summary: > > I notice no one had much to say about it one way or the other. > > -XT Biggest problem with this report, from a purely academic standpoint, is the data that was used (which they have admitted in a revised report). Same problem with Freeman’s study (which he admitted from the start). They are not using raw or “uncorrupted” data. The CNN data used has been re-weighted using the actual return data. I understand that there is nothing sinister about adjusting exit poll data with actual results (for the media’s purposes), but using it for a statistical study that purports to prove/disprove probability anomalies??? Another problem. From the report: _Even when they work well, exit polls are too imprecise to lay against the official count, unless every voter is included in the exit poll._ What kind of statistician would say that a 100 percent sample size is necessary for viable comparison? WTF is the point of _probability_ then? And another [problem](http://pr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12380.html): > [@](#): > > **Caltech to Renovate Historic Dabney Hall** > > PASADENA, Calif. – The elegant but aged Dabney Hall of the Humanities at the California Institute of Technology will be renovated this year, thanks in part to funding from the **Ahmanson Foundation**. Adjacent to the university’s chemistry, math, and physics departments, Dabney Hall bridges the humanities and sciences, both physically and figuratively, on Caltech’s campus. You know who Ahmanson is? Add on all the DoD grants CalTech receives and you’ve got the possibility of partisan bias to add to the mix… BTW, did you read the study, or did you post it because the results affirm your own instincts? I ask because one of the fascinating things about maths (IMO) is that it is often _counter_-intuitive. Ever hear of [Benford’s Law](http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/mathelmr/080498sci-benford.htm)? > [@](#): > > Intuitively, most people assume that in a string of numbers sampled randomly from some body of data, the first non-zero digit could be any number from 1 through 9. All nine numbers would be regarded as equally probable. > > But, as Dr. Benford discovered, in a huge assortment of number sequences – random samples from a day’s stock quotations, a tournament’s tennis scores, the numbers on the front page of The New York Times, the populations of towns, electricity bills in the Solomon Islands, the molecular weights of compounds, the half-lives of radioactive atoms and much more – this is not so. Interesting beyond this _voter angst_ business, Benford’s Law-based forensic accounting analysis has already been accepted as legal evidence for fraud (heads up - the IRS uses it). Here’s an example of its use in electoral returns (the Venezuela recall): [http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/rrModels/](http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/rrModels/) I’m still not sure if Benford’s Law could be applied to the actual returns in a viable experimental design (legally or mathematically), but if it can, I believe it would provide a more compelling scientific indicator of fraud than all these exit poll studies. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/138 "2004-11-19T06:43:04Z")
Please read: [http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm) Published on Thursday, November 18, 2004 by the Columbus Free Press (Ohio) Hearings on Ohio Voting Put 2004 Election in Doubt by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman [http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/1118-14.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/1118-14.htm) FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 18, 2004 UC Berkeley Research Team Sounds ‘Smoke Alarm’ for Florida E-Vote Count [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1118-11.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1118-11.htm) Published on Thursday, November 18, 2004 by Inter Press Service US Election: Democracy in Question by Ritt Goldstein [http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm) Published on Thursday, November 18, 2004 by [CommonDreams.org](http://CommonDreams.org) ‘Stinking Evidence’ of Possible Election Fraud Found in Florida by Thom Hartmann ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/139 "2004-11-19T14:22:32Z")
“In the end, many people speculated that the 1960 incidents were **not part of a grand conspiracy per se, but the cumulative effects of the actions of a number of individuals who shared a similar perspective, acted semi-independently, and did whatever it took to win.** ” [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1118-11.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1118-11.htm) (Hazel’s third link) Golly. I wonder if there’s merit to the aforementioned speculation regarding the 2004 incidents as well . . . And if one dares speculate further, is it even _possible_ that the sniggering, right-wing “tinfoil hat” decreers are, on occasion, prematurely _dismissive_ when the legitimacy of their idiot king is scutinized? Whew. I must be inhaling something now, because that’s just _crazy_ . . . ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182/140 "2004-11-19T15:48:45Z")
> [@Moody Bastard](#): > > And if one dares speculate further, is it even _possible_ that the sniggering, right-wing “tinfoil hat” decreers are, on occasion, prematurely _dismissive_ when the legitimacy of their idiot king is scutinized? > > Whew. I must be inhaling something now, because that’s just _crazy_ . . . **Moody Bastard** , unacceptance of your position has nothing to do with love of George W. Bush. There is copious room for intellectually honest disagreement on this matter. BTW: guys, from where does [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org) derive its legitimacy? Is there a reason it doesn’t belong in the same class as the _Washington Times_ and DEBKA? Even so, I did read through **Hazel’s** links. I’ll address her third link: > [@](#): > > Speculation focuses upon a number of questions – purposeful miscounts, anomalies surrounding electronic voting (e-voting) machines, particularly the optical scan types; and numerous reports of voting “irregularities” in heavily Democratic areas. > > “What they ‘do’ is minorities,” Nader said, highlighting the thrust of Republican efforts, "and make sure that there aren’t enough voting machines for the minority areas. They have to wait in line … for hours, and most of them don’t. There are all kinds of ways, and that’s why I was quoted as saying, “this election was hijacked from A to Z,” Nader told IPS. Speculation is not going to cut it. Hard evidence is required. And Nader can’t speak authoritatively about voting machines in minority precincts without offering some numbers. What preceincts? How many booths were there in the past, and how many were in those precincts this year? Lots of folks are talking about this superficially, but no one is giving hard numbers. Also, an alternative explanation for long lines – if turnout in some minority areas was significantly greater than in years past, perhaps the local election officials were caught flat-footed in their preparations; counting on, say, a 40% turnout when they actually got 70%. Why does foul play have to be invoked? > [@](#): > > Freeman also determined that the odds of any two of these states simultaneously reaching their stated vote tallies were “on the order of one-in-a-million,” and the odds of all three states arriving at the vote counts they did “are 250 million to one.” Uh oh – Freeman’s study is cited as a definitive source. That’s a problem, as Freeman does not demonstrate that Bush’s gains of around 3.0-3.5% was outside of the margin of exit poll error. > [@](#): > > Highlighting both the expected accuracy of exit polls and the significant disparity that Kerry’s defeat illustrated, Republican consultant, commentator and Fox-TV News regular Dick Morris wrote an article, ‘Those Faulty Exit Polls Were Sabotage’, suggesting a pollster conspiracy to swing the election for Kerry. > > In doing so he, perhaps inadvertently, provided ammunition for arguments from the opposite side – that the exit polls were correct but the final results were fudged. “Exit polls are almost never wrong,” argued Morris, and in 10 of the 11 key states they had predicted significantly fewer votes for Republican President George W Bush than he was eventually credited with. Extremely specious reasoning – Morris’s political affiliation has no bearing on whether or not he is correct. When Morris says (off the cuff) that exit polls are almost never wrong, he also is not allowing for a margin of error. Also, what is “significantly fewer”? > [@](#): > > “As far as I’m concerned, this election was clearly stolen. What they did in Ohio was systematically deny thousands of African Americans, and other suspected Democrats, the vote,” charged progressive author, commentator and activist Harvey Wasserman of Franklin County, Ohio. > > “It was like Mississippi in the fifties, and it was deliberate … had there been enough (voting) machines, and had people equal access to the polls with a reliable vote count, there is no doubt that John Kerry would have carried Ohio,” he told IPS. Sounds great, Mr. Wasserman … but where’s your numbers? Documentation? Evidence? Offer up something more than your general impression, and serve it up to CNN. Show me that you’re not talking off the cuff. And why aren’t you taking this to major news outlets? Why are you keeping your profile low by spilling beans to an Internet-based news source, where your accountability for what you say is essentially nil? > [@](#): > > Zogby, whose firm was not among those that provided network TV coverage of the Nov. 2 election, **described the possibility of either incompetence or fraud causing the controversial deviation as "impossible."** Somehow, I don’t think the author really wanted this paragraph in there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-blackboxvoting-org-have-hard-evidence-fraud-took-place-in-tuesdays-election/273182.md?page=8)