# Does British culture inordinately hate the working class? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047 "2014-08-31T15:19:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/21 "2014-09-01T13:07:31Z")
In England, many public housing projects built after WWII had “estate” in their names. Since then, “estate” has taken on a common meaning similar to “projects” in the United States. I believe that “council flats” or “council housing” are roughly equivalent to council estate—“council” being what we would call the municipal government—usually a city council/commission or county commission in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/22 "2014-09-01T13:20:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To me, the weird thing is not people scorning the class they’ve left behind, but rather those left behind scorning those trying to get ahead - the whole “puttin’ on airs” attitude, if you know what I mean. > > I was watching a season 1 (new) \*Doctor Who \*episode last week, the one where Rose found herself back in London with her mother and her sort-of boyfriend Micky. Rose was bemoaning the fact that she was stuck back in the estates, and had to go back to work in the shop instead of travelling through space and time, and then either Mickey or her mum shouted at her, “What, you think you’re better than us?” I found that attitude bewildering, almost horrifying. Who doesn’t want more out of life? What kind of small-minded monster criticizes someone trying to better their condition? It was just so… alien to me. This is a rather antiquated attitude, from a time when moving social classes was really quite difficult – the few that made it ‘up’ might be thought of as looking down on the people who used to be their friends, as if the people left behind didn’t try hard enough. Remember, the class system only worked because people ‘knew their place’. It’s different now. We can talk for days about the lingering class structure in the UK, and where we think we fit into it, but it doesn’t stop us from shifting up or down any more, and people don’t begrudge other people doing well. SanVito, solidly middle class with formerly-working-class-from-‘estates’-but-certainly-middle-class-golf-playing-vacationing-in-Italy-now parents who ‘did good’. ---
**Author:** ![1224rattusrattus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ec9cab/32.png) [@1224rattusrattus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1224rattusrattus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/23 "2014-09-01T13:47:50Z")
While there is a \*bit \* of stigma to living in a UK council estate, it is probably 50 times more of a stigma to live in a US housing project. Britain can’t afford to sneer too much at council housing since at least a quarter of the population live in them, although many of these people eventually buy their properties off the state. Contrary to what someone else said the build quality of much if not most council housing is of good quality, and this is increasingly noticeable now that private sector housing has arguably been getting worse & worse since the 1980’s especially with small sized bedrooms. A common phrase used to describe these shitty private homes is _Barratt Boxes_, Barratt being one of the most profitable developers of this rip-off suburban sprawl. However one of the reasons people dislike council housing is that despite the wide range of architectural styles used you can usually tell they are council houses just by looking at them. I suspect it’s the same in many countries Rose from Doctor Who lived in a 1960’s high rise estate, probably the least popular type of housing in the country. There used to be a lot more of them but a significant amount of these flats were knocked down due to cheap building techniques that meant they had a short lifespan, crime, and some people’s aversion to flats when they really wanted houses with gardens. Similar to how some of the American housing projects were bulldozed. You could argue that Rose (due to living in a tower block) is in the bottom tier of the working class, but London (like New York) has a relatively high proportion of this housing type so it’s considered pretty normal. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/24 "2014-09-01T14:19:14Z")
I’ll repost here what I put in [another similar thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=723481): As an immigrant to England, I have noticed that many people who self-identify as working class are often very scornful of anything they perceive as middle class. This seems to be part of demonstrating pride in their class (because to think positively of middle class things is to betray your working class roots). People who I would identify as middle class do not openly identify themselves as such, and don’t really talk about class that much (hence me saying I identify them as middle class, rather than them openly identifying themselves as such). So whilst I’d hear a working class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so middle class’, I’ve not heard a middle class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so working class.’ The middle class person is more likely to poke fun at themselves, saying ‘Oh my god, I sound so middle class’. I’ve not come across any upper class people. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/25 "2014-09-01T14:51:15Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > So whilst I’d hear a working class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so middle class’, I’ve not heard a middle class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so working class.’ The middle class person is more likely to poke fun at themselves, saying ‘Oh my god, I sound so middle class’. Your post nails it pretty well I think. I’m from a north-eastern working class family as is my wife but we’ve lived in a “posher” south-east area for 15 years now and our children are born and raised here. If pushed to chose, I’d shakily suggest that we are now middle-class but that I don’t know where or when the change occurred and that in our defence we definitely poke fun at ourselves when it rears it’s head. (We tone it down when we are back with our families though…is that a good or bad thing?). ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/26 "2014-09-01T15:51:34Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Ok change it to mocks their working class/blue collar class more easily. > > Better? To be honest, we pretty much mock everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/27 "2014-09-01T16:18:04Z")
As an American, I sure couldn’t say if British Culture scorns its working class as it goes about its daily business, but I will share my observations as to its culture that’s reflected in its mass media. Traditionally, British heroism was the domain of the aristocracy (with the caveat that Shakespeare’s best stuff didn’t deal with heroism, and Shaw & Hardy are almost devoid of it). But the noble virtues of phlegmatic devotion to duty and vast reservoirs of self-restraint were uniquely British, and long exclusively aristocratic. After actual history with Nelson, Cook, the Great War, etc. British filmmakers couldn’t have portrayed heroes solely as titled nobility even if it wanted, but still, Black & White movie heroes were middle-class men who assumed those aristocratic virtues: David Niven in **The Way Foreward** , Noel Coward **In Which We Serve** , Jack Hawkins in **The Cruel Sea**. This pretty much remained the archetype, though, after Kitchen Sink dramas turned the culture around; only seen in costume-drama heroes like Poldark, who conveniently lived before the invention of the kitchen sink. Then in real life Britain in the 70’s, the garbage piled up in the streets, the factories shut down; British men got pissed-off, punked-out, and shaved their heads. The heroic Brit archetype was no longer the aristo, but the tough guy in a tough spot with no time to fuss with his hair: Daniel Craig, Jason Statham, that big galoot on HBO’s Rome, etc., etc. And their virtue was being able to solve problems with violence. But solving problems with violence was traditional Britain’s criticism of America. What happened there? I remember first watching **Jurassic Park** , expecting it to turn into a typical American orgy of Dino-blasting. But instead all the survivors lived by using their wits. Except that one shaved-head Brit who tried violence. In my modest appraisal, neither the noble aristo nor the tough prole is my most beloved Brit archetype. That would be the silly Mr Chips from Oxbridge who comes along and saves civilization as an intellectual exercise (Bletchley Park , the Dam Busters, etc.). I don’t see that archetype as much any more, and that’s too bad. Because Great Britain reached the peak it did not because they were often undeniable noble as well as tough, but because they were so incredibly curious about the world. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/28 "2014-09-01T16:24:03Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > In my modest appraisal, neither the noble aristo nor the tough prole is my most beloved Brit archetype. That would be the silly Mr Chips from Oxbridge who comes along and saves civilization as an intellectual exercise (Bletchley Park , the Dam Busters, etc.). I don’t see that archetype as much any more, and that’s too bad. Because Great Britain reached the peak it did not because they were often undeniable noble as well as tough, but because they were so incredibly curious about the world. So… kind of Doctor Who then?\* \*If I can rightfully claim him as an alien of British cultural mores ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/29 "2014-09-01T20:53:21Z")
From [“The Art of Donald McGill,”](http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Art_of_Donald_McGill/0.html) by George Orwell: > [@](#): > > INTER-WORKING-CLASS SNOBBERY–Much in these post cards suggests that they are aimed at the better-off working class and poorer middle class. There are many jokes turning on malapropisms, illiteracy, dropped aitches and the rough manners of slum dwellers. Countless post cards show draggled hags of the stage-charwoman type exchanging ‘unladylike’ abuse. Typical repartee: ‘I wish you were a statue and I was a pigeon!’ A certain number produced since the war treat evacuation from the anti-evacuee angle. There are the usual jokes about tramps, beggars and criminals, and the comic maidservant appears fairly frequently. Also the comic navvy, bargee, etc.; but there are no anti-Trade-Union jokes. Broadly speaking, everyone with much over or much under £5 a week is regarded as laughable. The ‘swell’ is almost as automatically a figure of fun as the slum-dweller. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/30 "2014-09-01T21:25:55Z")
> [@grude](#): > > it did seem like her an mum were used as a source of humor and jokes. I guess if DW was made in the USA they would have lived in a run down trailer park or section \* housing or something. Jackie was equally as horrible when she was a rich lady in an alternative universe. It’s her, not the economic circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/31 "2014-09-01T23:22:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To me, the weird thing is not people scorning the class they’ve left behind, but rather those left behind scorning those trying to get ahead - the whole “puttin’ on airs” attitude, if you know what I mean. > … > I found that attitude bewildering, almost horrifying. Who doesn’t want more out of life? What kind of small-minded monster criticizes someone trying to better their condition? It was just so… alien to me. There is a strand of thought on the Left which is hostile to token representatives of the working class who hoist themselves out of poverty into prosperity, seeing it as one of the bones Capitalism throws to the working class in small quantities to keep it quiet. “_Let them rise **with** their class, not out of it_” - James Maxton ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/32 "2014-09-02T13:34:55Z")
> [@sandra\_nz](#): > > So whilst I’d hear a working class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so middle class’, I’ve not heard a middle class person say, scornfully, ‘That’s so working class.’ The middle class person is more likely to poke fun at themselves, saying ‘Oh my god, I sound so middle class’. Chav and chavvy are commonly used as insults. Pikey. So on. Of course I know more chavs and pikeys than middle-class people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/33 "2014-09-02T13:46:18Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > But solving problems with violence was traditional Britain’s criticism of America. What happened there? I remember first watching **Jurassic Park** , expecting it to turn into a typical American orgy of Dino-blasting. But instead all the survivors lived by using their wits. Except that one shaved-head Brit who tried violence. At least he had the good taste to acknowledge the raptor had outsmarted him (“Clever girl.”) instead of making his last words “What, you think you’re BETTER than me?” [chomp!] ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/34 "2014-09-02T13:46:30Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > It’s different now. We can talk for days about the lingering class structure in the UK, and where we think we fit into it, but it doesn’t stop us from shifting up or down any more, and people don’t begrudge other people doing well. As Der Trihs said, social mobility is lower than it has been since the leading profession in Britain was “domestic servant”. And I certainly do begrudge people their success. ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047/35 "2014-09-02T15:22:57Z")
I think the no. 1 “joke” class in Britain today is the benefit class. I know that when we say “Chav”, in our circle, we don’t mean ourselves, minimum wage drones, we mean the ones whom haven’t had a job in the family since the grandfather. Catherine Tate’s, “am I bovvered!”, the Jeremy Kyle guests, we laugh at them or we would cry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-british-culture-inordinately-hate-the-working-class/697047.md?page=1)