# Does Buddhism address Homosexuality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 8, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247 "2008-12-08T15:17:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/61 "2008-12-12T15:51:25Z")
So, did the Aztecs address homosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/62 "2008-12-13T04:35:01Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The first time the Dalai Lama visited Houston, he dropped by a pagoda where Vietnamese refugees worshipped. Sort of like the Pope visiting a little Baptist Church; even if he’d wanted to go, they wouldn’t have let him in! The Dalai Lama is not the Pope of Buddhism. Buddhism has no Pope. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/63 "2008-12-13T11:32:57Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The Dalai Lama is not the Pope of Buddhism. Buddhism has no Pope. I think the point is that the Pope is the leader of one particular sect of Christianity. The Dalai Lama is the leader of a particular sect of Buddhism. The Dalai Lama was welcomed in a temple of a different sect, whereas the Pope probably wouldn’t. The only difference between the Pope and the Dalai Lama, is that the Catholics form the largest sect of Christianity, whereas Tibetan Buddhists are a small minority. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/64 "2008-12-13T15:33:05Z")
A lot of really intelligent things have been said here. In my experience, it’s just really hard to generalize about Buddhism. There’s nothing inherently wrong in pointing out the Dalai Lama’s interpretation of things. Even though I don’t practice Tibetan Buddhism, I have great reverence for the Dalai Lama. Still, he doesn’t speak for all Buddhists everywhere. I suspect that opinions about homosexuality are going to vary widely depending on what’s considered culturally acceptable in that region. I guarantee that many Buddhists in California, for instance, wouldn’t think twice about embracing a homosexual with open arms. That doesn’t make them less Buddhist, and it doesn’t make them the ultimate authority either. There really _isn’t_ an ultimate authority. Buddhists don’t have something nice and compact like The Holy Bible with a neat little list of commandments. We have over 10,000 texts, many of them produced out of wholly different cultural and historical contexts. I am fascinated by **Koxinga’s** thesis, because in my experience Buddhism does lack that fundamental moral and ontological certainty that I enjoyed as a Christian. It also lacks, at least in my neck of the woods, that apple-pie and cookies and cider sense of community I got from attending a Baptist Church in my teenage years. I do not get that sense of completeness from my local Zen Temple. It is a very dark, formal, silent atmosphere with little social interaction. I can’t change what I believe is true, so I will try to fill in the gaps where I can. The good news is that Buddhism is very receptive to filling in the gaps with your own cultural or spiritual supplement. That is why it looks very different here in New Brunswick, NJ as opposed to, say, Phnom Penh, Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/65 "2008-12-13T16:15:53Z")
I once was a Baptist And on each Sunday morn We’d be in church singin’ As sure as you’re born We’d all sing like angels In the good harmony But sin and salvation Are no longer for me For now I’m a Buddhist I chant my mantra each day But I miss that hymn-singin’ In the good Gospel way So sing to old Buddha And the wonders of Zen We’ll meet in Nirvana Yes we’ll be there then My old friends don’t like me Since I shaved my head They all talk about me As if I were dead My good ol’ Zen buddies They think I’m OK But can’t get them singin’ More than one note a day We must sit cross-legged Eatin’ brown rice and tea We chant out our mantra In foursquare harmony We don’t sing of salvation Nor heavenly home Just the good ol’ Zen singin’ Of Om sweet Om ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/66 "2008-12-13T19:43:42Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > So why’d they stop? That I don’t know. You just never see Buddhist missionaries in other countries like you see Christian missionaries here and everywhere else. It just doesn’t seem to be a proselytizing religion anymore. They haven’t entirely, see: [http://www.bmsusa.org/](http://www.bmsusa.org/) But what happened is that there aren’t really many strong Buddhist countries that can afford to or want to make the effort to send out missionaries anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/67 "2008-12-13T19:50:02Z")
But, that being said, here are some more links. To the International Theravada Buddhist University, in Rangoon, Burma: [http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/univsity.htm](http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/univsity.htm) The Buddhist Faith Fellowship: [http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/buddhistpractice/id6.html](http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/buddhistpractice/id6.html) Buddhist Missionary Society Malaysia: [http://www.bmsm.org.my/](http://www.bmsm.org.my/) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/68 "2008-12-13T20:14:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I once was a Baptist > And on each Sunday morn > We’d be in church singin’ > As sure as you’re born > We’d all sing like angels > In the good harmony > But sin and salvation > Are no longer for me > > For now I’m a Buddhist > I chant my mantra each day > But I miss that hymn-singin’ > In the good Gospel way > So sing to old Buddha > And the wonders of Zen > We’ll meet in Nirvana > Yes we’ll be there then > > My old friends don’t like me > Since I shaved my head > They all talk about me > As if I were dead > My good ol’ Zen buddies > They think I’m OK > But can’t get them singin’ > More than one note a day > > We must sit cross-legged > Eatin’ brown rice and tea > We chant out our mantra > In foursquare harmony > We don’t sing of salvation > Nor heavenly home > Just the good ol’ Zen singin’ > Of Om sweet Om This is brilliant. Thanks for the smile. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/69 "2008-12-14T01:32:02Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They haven’t entirely, see: > > [http://www.bmsusa.org/](http://www.bmsusa.org/) > > But what happened is that there aren’t really many strong Buddhist countries that can afford to or want to make the effort to send out missionaries anymore. Not really. Thailand and even Sri Lanka could probably do so, Japan certainly. The organization you linked to is very obscure compared with some of the Christian organizations that are active. I could never be a Buddhist, just like I could never be a Christian, Muslim etc, because of all the phony supernatural baggage that goes with it (I know someone will probably pop up now to say he or she is a Buddhist without that baggage, but please, spare me), but Buddhists have the advantage of simply not being pushy. There are Buddhist-oriented colleges in Thailand, and if you were to attend one, no one would try to convert you. On the other hand, I’ve routinely steered students planning to study in the US away from certain universities because I know they’d be pressured into converting as soon as they stepped off the plane. I knew one Thai girl who spent a year in Oklahoma as a high-school exchange student, and she returned to Thailand a Christian fundamentalist. The speaking-in-tongues kind. Really. She was converted at a meeting where everyone apparently fell on the floor and started jabbering away. To this day (must be pushing 30 now, if not early 30s), she is some sort of mid-level official in the Thai offices of that church and spends a good deal of time preaching to the hilltribes in Chiang Rai province, in the North. Now that sort of thing just does not seem to lend itself to Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/70 "2008-12-14T01:48:39Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There are Buddhist-oriented colleges in Thailand, and if you were to attend one, no one would try to convert you. For what it’s worth, I knew someone who went to [Soka University](http://www.soka.ac.jp/en/index.html) as an exchange student, and he claimed there was definitely some pressure to join [Soka Gakkai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soka_Gakkai_International). Now, mind you, a lot of Buddhists have serious reservations about the Soka Gakkai, but they do see and advertise themselves as Buddhists. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/71 "2008-12-14T01:59:20Z")
I can’t speak for those wacky Japanese, but I suspect that to be some sort of nutty side offshoot. There are one or two in Thailand, although even they won’t actively try to recruit you. There’s one in particular that seems downright evil. Just north of Bangkok. The main temple building resembles a flying saucer. The followers all dress in white for meetings. It honestly seems almost like a Jonestown-style cult. It attracts a middle-class to wealthy following. My two sisters-in-law actually belong. There have been problems in the past with members signing all of the family fortune over to the temple. One sister-in-law of mine is such a devout follower that my mother-in-law, when she was alive, lived in constant dread that the daughter was going to turn the house over to the temple. (Various family properties are in different family members’ names, and the main family home just happened to be in this person’s name.) But neither sister-in-law has ever pressured me to join. The wife is not a follower, much to the quiet chagrin of her sisters. This temple was actually featured in a positive light on a BBC program called _Pechard’s People_ or something like that. Seemed to focus on a farang (Western) monk who has dedicated his life to the temple. I could not stomach watching the entire episode, but it seemed to be a fluff piece promoting the place without mentioning any of the controversy attached to it. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/72 "2008-12-14T02:37:49Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I am fascinated by **Koxinga’s** thesis, because in my experience Buddhism does lack that fundamental moral and ontological certainty that I enjoyed as a Christian. It also lacks, at least in my neck of the woods, that apple-pie and cookies and cider sense of community I got from attending a Baptist Church in my teenage years. I do not get that sense of completeness from my local Zen Temple. It is a very dark, formal, silent atmosphere with little social interaction. I can’t change what I believe is true, so I will try to fill in the gaps where I can. The good news is that Buddhism is very receptive to filling in the gaps with your own cultural or spiritual supplement. That is why it looks very different here in New Brunswick, NJ as opposed to, say, Phnom Penh, Cambodia. As you say, the Buddhist experience is variable. I’ve been to two Buddhist temples in the Los Angeles area: a large Chinese Buddhist temple with nearly all Chinese patrons and a small Tibetan Buddhist temple with all white patrons run by Tibetans. Both temples very much had the “apple-pie and cookies” sense of community. The Chinese temple especially had a very strong sense of community- the little kids running amok, the tables set up for charitable organizations in the hall, the weekend charity lunch, the people greeting and chatting with each other- that it made hardcore atheist me nostalgic for my Sundays at Catholic Mass. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/73 "2008-12-14T02:52:41Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > This is brilliant. Thanks for the smile. Not mine – it’s something I heard at an SF con once. In four-part harmony. I’d link to if I could find it online. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/74 "2008-12-14T04:43:52Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I can’t speak for those wacky Japanese, but I suspect that to be some sort of nutty side offshoot. Well, most Japanese Buddhist sects could be described as “nutty side offshoots,” especially the Nichiren sect, from which the Soka Gakkai branched off. They are however, very, very present. They have two universities, one in California, they frequently run ads on tv and in train cars. They (probably) control one of Japan’s main political parties. Despite being often labelled as “cultish,” they are very present, and it’s hard to see tv ads as anything but proselytizing. Anyway, they _claim_ to be mainstream. Edit to add: [Interestingly:](http://www.eqca.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=4026083&ct=5195425) > [@](#): > > The Ministers Association of the Buddhist Churches of America, with 21 temples and fellowships in California, has been performing weddings for same-sex couples for at least 30 years. And Soka Gakkai International-USA, one of the country’s largest Buddhist organizations, representing more than 300,000 members, has been marrying same-sex couples since at least 1995. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/75 "2008-12-14T04:58:46Z")
That’s still rather localized and esoteric, albeit more active than in my days in the US. Still not on the scale of, say, the Seventh-Day Adventists or Baptists. There was even one Christian missionary years ago operating a health clinic upcountry who reportedly got caught secretly sterilizing local “heathens,” to help keep their numbers down. As I recall, this was documented in, among other places, _The Politics of Opium in Southeast Asia_, by Alfred McCoy. And living among Buddhists all these years, this is the first I’ve heard of active missionaries, except for that one in the news article years ago. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/76 "2008-12-14T05:13:28Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > That’s still rather localized and esoteric, albeit more active than in my days in the US. Still not on the scale of, say, the Seventh-Day Adventists or Baptists. I’m not so sure about that. Soka Gakkai have often been accused of inflating their membership numbers but, from wiki: > [@](#): > > SGI claims 13 million members worldwide —10 million in Japan and 3 million elsewhere—especially in the United States, Brazil, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore. Furthermore, their leader likes to collect honorary doctorates – he has over 200 of them, from universities all over the world. He also likes to hang out with various powerful international figures. While, from everything I’ve heard, tend to think that they are indeed “cultish”, a lot of what makes them so could also be said about a lot of proselytizing Christian churches. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/77 "2008-12-14T05:27:40Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Not really. Thailand and even Sri Lanka could probably do so, Japan certainly. They could do so, but they don’t really want to. The Buddhist kingdoms that actively supported missionary work did so for political and imperialistic reasons. They both used Buddhism to legitimize their rulership and tried to convert their neighbors so that they’d fall under their cultural influence, and except in Thailand, and to a lesser extent in Myanmar, you don’t really see that sort of relationship between Buddhism and the state as much anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/78 "2008-12-14T06:21:38Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > I think the point is that the Pope is the leader of one particular sect of Christianity. The Dalai Lama is the leader of a particular sect of Buddhism. The Dalai Lama was welcomed in a temple of a different sect, whereas the Pope probably wouldn’t. The only difference between the Pope and the Dalai Lama, is that the Catholics form the largest sect of Christianity, whereas Tibetan Buddhists are a small minority. - You\* understood what I was trying to say! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/79 "2008-12-14T09:53:19Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > I’m not so sure about that. Soka Gakkai have often been accused of inflating their membership numbers but, from wiki: > Furthermore, their leader likes to collect honorary doctorates – he has over 200 of them, from universities all over the world. He also likes to hang out with various powerful international figures. > > While, from everything I’ve heard, tend to think that they are indeed “cultish”, a lot of what makes them so could also be said about a lot of proselytizing Christian churches. Suit yourself. We shall have to agree to disagree. I still say this sect is an exception if anything. If they were the rule, I’d be feeling it here, and I never have. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247/80 "2008-12-14T10:55:55Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Suit yourself. We shall have to agree to disagree. I still say this sect is an exception if anything. If they were the rule, I’d be feeling it here, and I never have. I’m not saying they’re not an exception. I’m simply poiting out that they’re a very large – and powerful – organisation with an international presence. I grew up in a thouroughly catholic environment and to me baptists definitely appear as some wacky and local sect, although I know that in fact they’re quite active outside the US. In that sense, the Soka Gakkai isn’t all that different from my p.o.v. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-buddhism-address-homosexuality/476247.md?page=3)