# Does consciousness exist outside a brain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138 "2014-11-20T07:10:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dopestraight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dopestraight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dopestraight)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/1 "2014-11-20T07:10:57Z")
I would like to know your opinions. Do all lives always include some measure of consciousness? I mean to include plants, insects, animals and humans…rather all of everything considered to possess what constitutes life. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/2 "2014-11-20T09:25:16Z")
Plants? Nah. Animals? The debate is ongoing. Some would argue that, yes, “[the weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Cambridge_Declaration_on_Consciousness)” Others - like [this rather heterodox fellow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes) - would argue that no, absolutely not, only humans are truly conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/3 "2014-11-20T09:27:44Z")
> [@dopestraight](#): > > Does consciousness exist outside a brain? No. > [@dopestraight](#): > > Do all lives always include some measure of consciousness? No. Is your kidney conscious? In order to be conscious, a creature has to have the proper neurological structure to support consciousness. Consciousness isn’t some magical universal life force. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/4 "2014-11-20T12:32:15Z")
Are we even sure what consciousness is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/5 "2014-11-20T12:44:21Z")
> [@dopestraight](#): > > I would like to know your opinions. Do all lives always include some measure of consciousness? I mean to include plants, insects, animals and humans…rather all of everything considered to possess what constitutes life. Your thoughts? My opinion happens to line up with all available verifiable evidence to date: No, without the proper neurological structure, there is no consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/6 "2014-11-20T16:44:53Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Are we even sure what consciousness is? No, but we know it when we see it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/7 "2014-11-20T16:53:52Z")
Consciousness is way over-rated. It’s not intelligence. There’s plenty of consciousness over a range of levels in the universe. We just consider ourselves to have some special high level of consciousness. While we’re doing that some higher level of consciousness is laughing at the puny concept of consciousness we hold in our electro-chemical brain. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/8 "2014-11-20T16:57:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Consciousness is way over-rated. It’s not intelligence. There’s plenty of consciousness over a range of levels in the universe. We just consider ourselves to have some special high level of consciousness. While we’re doing that some higher level of consciousness is laughing at the puny concept of consciousness we hold in our electro-chemical brain. Wow-That sounds so cool! Care to enlighten us with facts? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/9 "2014-11-20T17:25:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > While we’re doing that some higher level of consciousness is laughing at the puny concept of consciousness we hold in our electro-chemical brain. And you know that how? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/10 "2014-11-20T18:30:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wow-That sounds so cool! Care to enlighten us with facts? Do you have any facts? Consciousness is a concept without a strict definition. Some people believe it’s some kind of magical quality, and others think it’s nothing but an egotisical view that humans must somehow be more conscious than a turtle. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And you know that how? You wouldn’t want to know. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/11 "2014-11-20T18:48:19Z")
And in saying that, I think we’ve got our answer. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/12 "2014-11-20T21:49:42Z")
David Quammen, in one of his books on nature, describes the rather robotic behavior of a kind of insect. It repeats the same sequence of actions, always. If you interrupt the pattern, the poor dear little thing has to go all the way back to the beginning and start over. (Like Marty Feldman reciting a memorized message in Sherlock Holmes’ Smarter Brother.) Would anything with consciousness (and a memory) waste time with that? The phone rang while I was drying the dishes…so now I have to wash them all over again so I can dry them properly? Some insects do not appear to be conscious. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/13 "2014-11-20T21:53:41Z")
Czarcasm speaks with surprising aplomb regarding his factual understanding of an unmeasured, ill-defined concept that may or may not exist at all. Is the antenna a necessary prerequisite to the radio signal? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/14 "2014-11-20T22:28:23Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Czarcasm speaks with surprising aplomb regarding his factual understanding of an unmeasured, ill-defined concept that may or may not exist at all. Czarcasm has had more than his share of shamen/gurus/yogis dispensing “wisdom” that is eight miles wide and the depth of a well-practiced knowing smile. After a while all I can hear is “I gots sekrit knowlige and I’m not giving you any!” Sure you do. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/15 "2014-11-20T23:10:17Z")
No, pending evidence otherwise for which I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/16 "2014-11-20T23:17:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > David Quammen, in one of his books on nature, describes the rather robotic behavior of a kind of insect. It repeats the same sequence of actions, always. If you interrupt the pattern, the poor dear little thing has to go all the way back to the beginning and start over. > > (Like Marty Feldman reciting a memorized message in Sherlock Holmes’ Smarter Brother.) > > Would anything with consciousness (and a memory) waste time with that? The phone rang while I was drying the dishes…so now I have to wash them all over again so I can dry them properly? > > Some insects do not appear to be conscious. Consciousness does not preclude being constrained by your biological limitations. Any man should know that. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/17 "2014-11-20T23:22:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Czarcasm has had more than his share of shamen/gurus/yogis dispensing “wisdom” that is eight miles wide and the depth of a well-practiced knowing smile. After a while all I can hear is “I gots sekrit knowlige and I’m not giving you any!” > > Sure you do. So you have nothing. Not one fact, and an opinion based on nothing also. You are the one claiming to have the secret knowledge of what consciousness is or is not despite the failure to do that by all the experts on the subject. If you don’t know what the argument is about your opinions contribute nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/18 "2014-11-20T23:44:59Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Consciousness does not preclude being constrained by your biological limitations. Any man should know that. Grin! But…consciousness is constrained by biological cognitive limitations. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/19 "2014-11-20T23:48:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you have nothing. Not one fact, and an opinion based on nothing also. You are the one claiming to have the secret knowledge of what consciousness is or is not despite the failure to do that by all the experts on the subject. If you don’t know what the argument is about your opinions contribute nothing. Since this is all in reference to your enigmatic post #7, that makes _this_ post nothing more than a long-winded “No I’m not! You are!!”, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138/20 "2014-11-21T04:09:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Would anything with consciousness (and a memory) waste time with that? The phone rang while I was drying the dishes…so now I have to wash them all over again so I can dry them properly? Yes, you could be conscious. That would be from your point of view an extreme form of OCD, I guess. Or you could be conscious and not realize that there’s anything weird in your behaviour, because you’re hardwired this way. I’d guess we have some hardwired much more simple reflexes that sometimes don’t serve any useful purpose, and in some circumstances are actually harmful. Washing the dishes is a much more complex behaviour, but it’s not completely unimaginable that a conscious entity could still be completely governed by complex hardwired behaviour, instead of mere reflexes, in some circumstances. Let’s assume that they would have some inescapable hardwired mating behaviour. A female appear, and the male behaves in a completely scripted way, for instance. And despite being conscious, he isn’t surprised anymore by this than we are by having the reflex to eventually breath even when underwater, or to extend a leg when hit at a certain spot on the knee. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-consciousness-exist-outside-a-brain/705138.md?page=2)