# does "Dark Fantasy" as a genre exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378 "2006-01-04T09:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/1 "2006-01-04T09:42:02Z")
I was thinking about “dark fantasy” the other day, but I realized that I couldn’t think of a single book or series that really fits the bill. Does it exist? I’m talking about **dark** fantasy - no swashbuckling adventures here. I guess the genre would be more of a direct descendent of Lord Dunsany, with the tone of something like that - closer to HP Lovecraft than JRR Tolkien, but still fantasy, not horror. I’m talking withcraft, incestuous relationships, demons, necromancy, vampire kingdoms, the king taking a child bride for his queen, doomed knights in a fallen world/kingdom, and so on. Does this exist? Is any of it good? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/2 "2006-01-04T10:12:35Z")
There’s some argument about whether it exists as a literary genre, but, the term Dark Fantasy has some use, anyway. It’s a bit nebulous in what it refers to, to be sure, which is why such argument exists - generally it refers to works that straddle, or at least edge towards, the line between Fantasy and Horror. It also tends to stradle other subgenres of Fantasy, being defined more by the atmosphere than the setting or fantastic element. And, of course, there’s DF art. The works of Brom are a perfect example. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/3 "2006-01-04T10:20:21Z")
**VCO3** : Is it fair to say that your conception of ‘Dark Fantasy’ is fairly close to Gothic Horror? Ruined castles, perversely decadent royal families, and especially vampires are all hallmarks of what is commonly called Gothic fiction. (BTW, what is the dividing line between Horror and Fantasy in your mind if Fantasy can include (presumably functonal) necromancy, vampires, and demons?) ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/4 "2006-01-04T11:16:15Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > (BTW, what is the dividing line between Horror and Fantasy in your mind if Fantasy can include (presumably functonal) necromancy, vampires, and demons?) What’s your dividing line if it can’t? Supernatural Horror and Dark Fantasy can easily include those, of course - or lack them. But so can other genres of Fantasy (but non-supernatural Horror, of course, lacks them by definition). Just using one of your examples: Dracula is Gothic Horror. The Vampire Chronicals are Dark Fantasy. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a, usually fairly light, modern Fantasy. All include vampires, all are very different genres. The dividing line between Supernatural Horror and Fantasy’s various subgenres aren’t the fantastic/supernatural elements, but, the atmosphere the work wants to create, the emotions it intends to provoke in the viewer/reader. ---
**Author:** ![ddgryphon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8c91f0/32.png) [@ddgryphon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ddgryphon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/5 "2006-01-04T16:10:48Z")
Well there’s this: [double-dragon-ebooks.com](http://www.double-dragon-ebooks.com/glist.asp?genre=Dark%20Fantasy) This: > **[Fiction Factor - Writing Tips for Fiction Writers](http://www.fictionfactor.com/)** > > Writing Tips for Fiction Writers This: [http://horror.about.com/od/resources/tp/tp\_publishers.htm](http://horror.about.com/od/resources/tp/tp_publishers.htm) And this: [http://www.speculativeliterature.org/Writing/pubs.php](http://www.speculativeliterature.org/Writing/pubs.php) google [“dark fantasy” publishing] without the brackets and you’ll get pages of specialized publishers. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/6 "2006-01-04T16:38:43Z")
The Dark Tower series sounds like it would qualify. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/7 "2006-01-04T19:21:23Z")
Anne Bishop’s Black Jewels Trilogy is sometimes regarded (at least by casual fantasy readers) as a great example of dark fantasy, but it crosses the lines of many genres - traditional fantasy, horror and romance. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/8 "2006-01-04T19:22:31Z")
How about Michael Moorcock’s Elric books? ---
**Author:** ![Emerald\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Emerald\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emerald_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/9 "2006-01-04T19:37:17Z")
Separating Dark Fantasy from Horror always seemed tricky. I agree with **Tengu** that atmosphere and emotions are really what divides the two. To me, something like _Perdido Street Station_ by China Miéville has many of the Dark Fantasy components without really being horror. Fantastic creatures and magic are abundant in the fully realized world of the book. While it is at times scary and suspenseful, that’s not the primary focus of the story. Really, it’s a story about power and corruption, and bad things happening to good people. Very bad things. And to answer your second question, _Perdido Street Station_ is very good but also very depressing. The book affected me so profoundly that I have never read any of China’s other books set in the same world. Not because they wouldn’t be good, but because they would be too much of a downer for me. If you want a review that is more detailed (with more spoilers) check [here](http://www.sfsite.com/07b/ps108.htm). ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/10 "2006-01-04T20:40:05Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > I’m talking withcraft, incestuous relationships, demons, necromancy, vampire kingdoms, the king taking a child bride for his queen, doomed knights in a fallen world/kingdom, and so on. Steven Erikson’s Malazan Empire books have witchcraft, demons (although he doesn’t call them that), necromancy, and whole races of doomed beings in fallen worlds/kingdoms. No incest yet, but I’ve only read the first three books. I think they’re very original, although I’ve only been reading fantasy for a few years. If he’s borrowing from anyone, I’m not seeing it. He reminds me a bit of Gene Wolfe, The Book of the New Sun, in tone, and in the slow unraveling of the plot. I’d call them dark, very dark, but there’s also a bit of humor in some of the characters’ interactions. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/11 "2006-01-04T21:36:41Z")
The _Malazan Empire_ books that **AuntiePam** mentions are good, as are Glen Cook’s _Black Company_ series. Although the _Elric_ books do qualify, I’d suggest Moorcock’s science fantasy _End of Time_ books. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/12 "2006-01-04T21:54:26Z")
Check out [The Gormenghast Trilogy](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879516283/qid=1136411466/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-9634164-0877434?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). A gothic fantasy masterpiece filled with crumbling castles, grotesque characters and a murderous schemer as the chief protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/13 "2006-01-04T22:19:55Z")
If Glen Cook’s _Black Company_series counts, then I want to recommend it. But only the first 3. I will say that I had a little trouble with the first one, but over all I like the series. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/14 "2006-01-04T22:35:14Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > (BTW, what is the dividing line between Horror and Fantasy in your mind if Fantasy can include (presumably functonal) necromancy, vampires, and demons?) What I’ve found myself wondering is: What’s the dividing line between Horror and Urban Fantasy? Take a character, and drop some element of supernatural into their otherwise ordinary existience - which genre is the story going to fall into? The only major difference is usually how many people the supernatural element injures or kills, and if they’re monsters or fairy creatures. I’d like to answer VO3’s question, since I’ve read something very close to what he’s looking for, but I can’t. The book, unfortunately, is one I’ve tried repeatedly to locate for several years so I could reread it, and I can’t remember the title or author. Something at the back of my mind insists that the title has something to do with a form of the word “illumination” but nothing I’ve looked up sounds remotely like the plot, which is: A young woman is caught in the middle of a civil war. All the aristocrats, like her family, are being murdered, and it finally comes out that the reason they’re being murdered is because they’re elves. She realizes that someone she knows was murdered because she sees their discarded hair ribbon, and eventually has to deal with the fact that she’s not human either, and everyone is out to get her. I think it’s loosely based on the french revolution, but set in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, when I was a Freshman in college, just months after I read the book the town decided they wanted their own library rather than to continue using the univeristy library. So they formed a new library and took many of the fiction books. This book was one of them. If it hadn’t been, I could have found out years ago which book it was because the university library catologue is online. The town’s isn’t. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/15 "2006-01-04T23:15:55Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > A young woman is caught in the middle of a civil war. All the aristocrats, like her family, are being murdered, and it finally comes out that the reason they’re being murdered is because they’re elves. She realizes that someone she knows was murdered because she sees their discarded hair ribbon, and eventually has to deal with the fact that she’s not human either, and everyone is out to get her. I think it’s loosely based on the french revolution, but set in a fantasy world. Man, that description is ringing all sorts of bells for me! I would have read it about 15 to 20 yrs ago so, unfortunately, the title and author have completely disappeared from my memory. I’ve got a feeling that some of it may have referenced the murder of the Huguenots or maybe some other reformation era atrocity. ---
**Author:** ![Dervish\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dervish\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervish_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/16 "2006-01-05T02:35:49Z")
I think a lot of authors write darker short stories than novels. It’s hard to find a balance between interesting characters and nastiness. Robin McKinley managed it well in a novel called “Deerskin,” which re-tells the story of the king who wants to marry his daughter. Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow edited a whole series of short fairy-tale retellings that were very dark. I think “Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears” was the first, and then “Black Thorn, White Rose,” and a few other Black/White ones. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/17 "2006-01-05T06:02:52Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **VCO3** : Is it fair to say that your conception of ‘Dark Fantasy’ is fairly close to Gothic Horror? Ruined castles, perversely decadent royal families, and especially vampires are all hallmarks of what is commonly called Gothic fiction. > > (BTW, what is the dividing line between Horror and Fantasy in your mind if Fantasy can include (presumably functonal) necromancy, vampires, and demons?) The difference, at least in my mind and definition, is that “Dark Fantasy” will still be primarily “capital F” Fantasy - knights in armor, but maybe a vampire night in a fallen kingdom. Kings and Queens, but ones involved in machiavellian scheming and creepy incest. Wizards aren’t grandfatherly Gandalfs, but otherworldly necromancers involved in witchcraft and the dark arts. Castles aren’t Fairy Tale Cair Paravels, but crumbling, gothic affairs populated by gaunt urchins. So far, the Gormengast thing sounds _perfect_, as does the Malazan. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/18 "2006-01-05T06:14:43Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > So far, the Gormengast thing sounds _perfect_, as does the Malazan. Oh goody. I’ve been waiting for Dopers to read these, because I have questions!! [Here](http://http://www.malazanempire.com/index.shtml) is a fairly comprehensive website. The links don’t always work, however. The first Malazan book is Gardens of the Moon. Erikson does **no** exposition. You’re dumped right in the middle of a power struggle involving an entire world, with a bunch of different races and cultures and gods who aren’t your typical gods, and he explains **nothing**. I have yet to run across anyone who didn’t struggle with the first book, quit, go back, quit, go back, and then love it enough to read it several times. I’ve read the first and third books twice, and I hardly ever re-read. These books are just so damn good. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/19 "2006-01-05T06:18:55Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Oh goody. I’ve been waiting for Dopers to read these, because I have questions!! What about? I’ve read the first five books, plus the first novella. And yes, he does call them “demons”. Oh, and there’s a lot more humor in book 5. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/20 "2006-01-05T06:31:14Z")
All right, freaked out and ordered Gormenghast, Gardens of the Moon, Perdido Street Station, and Shadow and Claw (the book of the new sun). I think i’m set for a while. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378.md?page=2)