# does "Dark Fantasy" as a genre exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378 "2006-01-04T09:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/21 "2006-01-05T06:52:43Z")
> [@Emerald Hawk](#): > > And to answer your second question, _Perdido Street Station_ is very good but also very depressing. The book affected me so profoundly that I have never read any of China’s other books set in the same world. Not because they wouldn’t be good, but because they would be too much of a downer for me. [hijack] You haven’t missed much. _Perdido_ is the best - the other 2 in that series tend to get a bit too political, at least IMHO [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/22 "2006-01-05T11:23:40Z")
> [@Sierra Indigo](#): > > [hijack] You haven’t missed much. _Perdido_ is the best - the other 2 in that series tend to get a bit too political, at least IMHO [/hijack] I beg to differ - while _Iron Council_ is as you describe, and a downer, _The Scar_ is great - even better than _PSS_ I think. There’s politics, but it’s a lot more upbeat, at the en,d than either of the other two. Also much broader scope. To the OP - have Storm Constantine’s _Wraethru_ books been encountered by you? They’re a little like Anne Rice crossed with fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Future\_Londonite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@Future\_Londonite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Future_Londonite)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/23 "2006-01-05T14:18:59Z")
Would C.S. Friedman’s _Coldfire Trilogy_ count?..some reviews mentioned SF premise to the books, but the only SF part is explaining how the world came to be the way it is ---
**Author:** ![lachesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lachesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lachesis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/24 "2006-01-05T17:02:46Z")
at the risk of being a wet blanket, i’ll voice a “disappointed” vote for the Gormenghast Trilogy. yes, strange characters, bizarre settings and rituals, occasional moments of touching interactions… but the whole thing ended with such a _ **THUD** _ that it pretty much ruined the overall impression for me. (plus i thought the third volume started getting just a bit _too_ strange and implausible as it went along.) i read it probably around 25 years ago, as i recall. one of the first set of books i weeded out of my collection shortly after finishing. YMMV, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/25 "2006-01-05T17:57:25Z")
> [@lachesis](#): > > at the risk of being a wet blanket, i’ll voice a “disappointed” vote for the Gormenghast Trilogy. yes, strange characters, bizarre settings and rituals, occasional moments of touching interactions… but the whole thing ended with such a _ **THUD** _ that it pretty much ruined the overall impression for me. (plus i thought the third volume started getting just a bit _too_ strange and implausible as it went along.) If you’re referring to _Titus Alone_, I’d have to agree. It’s a nearly unreadable mess. It certainly didn’t help that the unfinished manuscript was cobbled together by the author’s estate after his death. That, however, in no way diminishes the brilliance of the first two volumes, _Gormenghast_ and _Titus Groan_. In fact, I found the resolution of _TG_ to be quite satisfying and a fitting end to the series. If **VCO3** wishes to avoid disappointment then he can do what I do and pretend _TA_ doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/26 "2006-01-05T19:19:27Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > What about? I’ve read the first five books, plus the first novella. And yes, he does call them “demons”. Oh, and there’s a lot more humor in book 5. I wouldn’t know where to start. 🙂 I’d like a better understanding of the warrens (who gets to use them – just the Ascendants?) and the Finnest House and the Deck, and how ascendance happens. Are there super-gods in addition to the regular gods? I’d like to take notes as I’m reading these books, but (1) I get caught up in the story, and (2) I don’t usually know what’s going to be important later. Which is understandable, because it seems like Erikson has a reason for **everything**. ---
**Author:** ![lachesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lachesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lachesis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/27 "2006-01-05T19:25:20Z")
> [@Hodge](#): > > If you’re referring to _Titus Alone_, I’d have to agree. It’s a nearly unreadable mess. It certainly didn’t help that the unfinished manuscript was cobbled together by the author’s estate after his death. > > That, however, in no way diminishes the brilliance of the first two volumes, _Gormenghast_ and _Titus Groan_. In fact, I found the resolution of _TG_ to be quite satisfying and a fitting end to the series. If **VCO3** wishes to avoid disappointment then he can do what I do and pretend _TA_ doesn’t exist. ahh, indeed? well, that could explain #3 then, i suppose. although, as i said, reading it managed to obliterate some of the better points of the previous installments (like what the ending to Volume 2 was). “a mess” is a stunningly perfect summary, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/28 "2006-01-05T20:19:06Z")
I definitely sympathize. In fact, I probably should have added a disclaimer about the 3rd book in my original recommendation. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/29 "2006-01-05T21:22:11Z")
This is borderline what you’re asking for VC03, but if you like that China Mieville book you sent off for, you might dig Hack L. Chalker’s Quintara Marathon series. It’s more dark sci-fi than it is fantasy, but still retains some dark fantasy elements for the sake of form. There are 3 galactic powers in the universe, and Earth is tied to all three. You could use D&D terms and call one the Lawful Good empire, one the Neutral Evil Empire, and the other the True Neutral empire. There are constant border wars between the three empires, and each is looking for some sort of edge over the others. Then a race of demons is discovered, promising vast knowledge and power to the best empire, and all three converge on them. The demons of course have their own agenda and manipulate all three. Gets a little weird at the end, but it’s a good read overall. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/30 "2006-01-05T23:53:47Z")
What, no plugs for George R.R. Martin’s _A Song of Ice and Fire_ series as dark fantasy? That’s what I thought of as soon as I saw the thread title. Very dark and fantastic. Very dense and intense but satisfying. I have to say that I love all three of China Mieville’s fantasy novels, and I loved _Iron Council_, politics or no. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/31 "2006-01-06T00:33:20Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > What, no plugs for George R.R. Martin’s _A Song of Ice and Fire_ series as dark fantasy? That’s what I thought of as soon as I saw the thread title. Very dark and fantastic. Very dense and intense but satisfying. I love Martin’s books, but are they really all that dark? He kills off major characters, some of whom we like, and there’s plenty of treachery and violence, but he also gives us hope that things will come out right in the end. That makes them less dark, IMHO. Dark = hopeless, despairing. I haven’t read A Feast for Crows yet though. I’m hoping for more hopelessness. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/32 "2006-01-06T05:38:44Z")
I’d consider Tim Powers’ work to be rather dark. My favorite book of his is _Last Call_. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/33 "2006-01-06T06:09:31Z")
The manga and anime **Berserk** would, if anything, fit this genre. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/34 "2006-01-06T06:18:18Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I wouldn’t know where to start. 🙂 I’d like a better understanding of the warrens (who gets to use them – just the Ascendants?) and the Finnest House and the Deck, and how ascendance happens. Are there super-gods in addition to the regular gods? Can’t help you a whole lot, unfortunately. Adding spoiler tags just in case. [spoiler]Warrens: Well, obviously wizards can use them, as well as folks who tag along with wizards or who the Ascendants allow. The warrens also appear to have native flora and fauna (e.g., demons). I get the impression there’s a whole bunch of warrens out there and the Ascendants kinda move in to the ones that fit them best. Finnest House: I don’t recall anything more being revealed about the Finnest, but book 5 suggests that something major is happening with Azaths. Deck: Some more hints, but there’s nothing really substantive. But just as there’s more to reality than just the warrens, I think the deck (or something related to the deck) is larger than it seems. I suspect the deck is tied in to the azaths in some way, but that’s mostly just guessing on my part. Super-gods: There’s the elder gods, but I don’t know of any beyond them.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/35 "2006-01-06T07:05:03Z")
Try Michael Swanwick’s The Iron Dragon’s Daughter. Dark, _industrial_ fantasy, set in a world where an upper caste of beautiful, haughty and cruel elves rules over an underclass of humans and more or less every other mythical creatures, in a world that is a mixture of magic and high technology ( including banality like malls ). For example the bitter and sly Iron Dragon of the title is what is apparently a missle-armed, stealthed and ecm packed sentient robot AI that loathes its slavery to its elf masters. Quite brooding and dark at times, other times funny. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/36 "2006-01-06T16:55:03Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > The manga and anime **Berserk** would, if anything, fit this genre. I don’t think so. It is a fantasy/medieval anime with a lot of violence, but it isn’t dark fantasy. I think of dark fantasy as having horror elements such as vampires and dark magic and things. Berserk doesn’t really break those boundaries. I see dark fantasy not as the overall mood of the story, but as the people and objects within it. ---
**Author:** ![Selkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Selkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Selkie)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/37 "2006-01-06T17:23:21Z")
What about something along the lines of the comic series _[Lucifer](http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?isbn=1563897334)_, or Neil Gaiman’s _Neverwhere_ (prose)? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/38 "2006-01-06T18:39:33Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > Can’t help you a whole lot, unfortunately. Adding spoiler tags just in case. Thank you. I’m finding the whole concept of the Deck pretty confusing. Intriguing, but confusing. I think my problem is my mindset. I want to think of it as a Tarot deck, used for revelation, but Erikson’s Deck seems to be much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/39 "2006-01-06T19:51:11Z")
> [@Selkie](#): > > What about something along the lines of the comic series _[Lucifer](http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?isbn=1563897334)_, or Neil Gaiman’s _Neverwhere_ (prose)? While I would probably classify _Neverwhere_ as dark fantasy, **VCO3** does say that he’s looking for “capital F” Fantasy. _Neverwhere_, while fantasy, is really much more modern and urban (more or less by definition, of course). Also, while reading it, I never got the sense of hopelessness that people seem to be craving. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/40 "2006-01-06T21:11:00Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > I was thinking about “dark fantasy” the other day, but I realized that I couldn’t think of a single book or series that really fits the bill. Does it exist? I do think that the _Ruby Slippers, Golden Tears_ series is a great place to start for dark fantasy; there are some real gems in this series. One of my favorites is a retelling by Neil Gaiman of [The Robber Bridegroom](http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm040.html), only with a twist to make it even darker than the original. There’s also an exceptional version of _Snow White_ in one of them, a version in which the evil witch **is** Snow White, and her stepmother is a less-powerful sorceress desperately trying to protect the kingdom. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378.md?page=3)