# does "Dark Fantasy" as a genre exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 4, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378 "2006-01-04T09:42:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hodge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Hodge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hodge)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/41 "2006-01-06T21:35:30Z")
Since Neil Gaiman’s been mentioned, how about [Coraline](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380807343/qid=1136583217/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8804960-9657718?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). Ostensibly a children’s book but gripping, suspenseful and creepy as hell, nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/42 "2006-01-06T21:48:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Try Michael Swanwick’s The Iron Dragon’s Daughter. > > Dark, _industrial_ fantasy, set in a world where an upper caste of beautiful, haughty and cruel elves rules over an underclass of humans and more or less every other mythical creatures, in a world that is a mixture of magic and high technology ( including banality like malls ). For example the bitter and sly Iron Dragon of the title is what is apparently a missle-armed, stealthed and ecm packed sentient robot AI that loathes its slavery to its elf masters. Quite brooding and dark at times, other times funny. > > - Tamerlane Ok, _that_ sounds good. I am going to try to pick it up today. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/43 "2006-01-06T23:21:48Z")
Isn’t _Perdido Street Station_ the New Weird? Or is that just for science fiction? Oh, and _The Iron Dragon’s Daughter_ is awesome, as is everything else Swanwick has written. I also love _Stations of the Tide_, although it’s not dark fantasy at all. What about _The Etched City_, by K.J. Bishop? It reminds me very much of _Perdido Street Station_. It’s about two ex-mercenaries who travel to one of those languid tropical cities and, uh, you’d have to really read it yourself, I can’t imagine a plot summary that would express what I liked about the book or make any sense at all. It’s very good, though. Even though the first copy I ordered had the craziest binding mistake I’ve ever seen - the first half of the book was a set of papers from a conference on Virginia Woolf. (I actually skimmed a few of the first pages because I knew the book was supposed to be a little odd, but…) There’s a lot of urban fantasy that might fit what you’re looking for - Jim Butcher has a series of books, the Dresden Files, that are a lot of fun, about a modern wizard detective. There’s vampires and werewolves and demons and such in them, but they haven’t got the gothic atmosphere of _Gormenghast_ or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/44 "2006-01-06T23:23:01Z")
PS - _Coraline_ scared the living crap out of me. Children’s book _indeed_! (It’s awesome, just not at night.) ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/45 "2006-01-07T00:27:40Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I love Martin’s books, but are they really all that dark? Are you kidding me? I am in the process of rereading the series and am almost finished with _A Storm of Swords_. _A Game of Thrones_ was so depressing I almost couldn’t get through it again, but if anything, ASoS was worse. > [@](#): > > He kills off major characters, some of whom we like, and there’s plenty of treachery and violence, but he also gives us hope that things will come out right in the end. That makes them less dark, IMHO. Dark = hopeless, despairing. He kills off people that you thought you could count on to be protagonists. He makes characters you love suffer unspeakably. He seems to let the bad guys win, a lot, and get away with murder, literally. I know there is hope, as a reader, but none of the characters we like have any hope. It’s pretty damn grim. China Mieville is grimmer, but not by much, IMO. > [@](#): > > I haven’t read A Feast for Crows yet though. I’m hoping for more hopelessness. 🙂 It’s a tweener book that left me only wanting the next book more. I guess he did his job, then. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/46 "2006-01-07T00:31:46Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > There’s also an exceptional version of _Snow White_ in one of them, a version in which the evil witch **is** Snow White, and her stepmother is a less-powerful sorceress desperately trying to protect the kingdom. > > Daniel The title of that short story is _Snow Glass Apples_ if anyone’s interested in looking for it. It’s been printed in at least one of Gaiman’s short-story collections and is also available as an audio-short-story on the _Two Plays for Voices_ CD along with the also-excellent story by Gaiman, _Murder Mysteries_. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/47 "2006-01-07T01:57:56Z")
My recommendation is **God Stalk** and it’s sequels, by Pat C. Hodgell. How to summarize it? In a world which would be bizarre enough on it’s own _without_ an invasion by an evil, otherdimensional anti-reality force, a young woman seeks a place for herself despite knowing that she’s the incarnation of the Destroyer aspect of the Three-Faced God. Cursed and cast out by her people, she finds a few friends and lots of enemies as various factions seek to use or destroy her for various agendas. For a really dark short story, try \*\*After the Last Elf is Dead \*\*, by Harry Turtledove. Sort of what the world might have looked like after Sauron _won_. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/48 "2006-01-07T07:39:02Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > He kills off people that you thought you could count on to be protagonists. He makes characters you love suffer unspeakably. He seems to let the bad guys win, a lot, and get away with murder, literally. Exactly. I mean, within the first 50 pages of the first book, He has a character throw a seven year old boy out of a top story window out of fear that the boy just saw him committing incest with his sister. ---
**Author:** ![TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/51bf81/32.png) [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/49 "2006-01-31T09:27:57Z")
I just wanted to thank you guys so much for the recs. I **loved** _Shadow and Claw_ so much - it was literally _exactly_ what I was looking for when I made this OP. I almost equally enjoyed _Perdido Street Station_, and want to read everything else I can find by Mieville (i’m looking at that book of short stories, and then on to the others set in the same world as Perdido). I’m still working on _Titus Groan_, but really enjoying it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/50 "2006-01-31T15:38:24Z")
Stephen Donaldson. Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. Very deep, well-decribed world. Hero is a complete jerk. The world seems to be going downhill in the first couple of books. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen\_R.\_Donaldson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_R._Donaldson) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/51 "2006-01-31T15:50:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > My recommendation is **God Stalk** and it’s sequels, by Pat C. Hodgell. How to summarize it? In a world which would be bizarre enough on it’s own _without_ an invasion by an evil, otherdimensional anti-reality force, a young woman seeks a place for herself despite knowing that she’s the incarnation of the Destroyer aspect of the Three-Faced God. Cursed and cast out by her people, she finds a few friends and lots of enemies as various factions seek to use or destroy her for various agendas. Precisely what I was thinking of. Better still, there are two more books, and a fourth presumably on the way. _Godstalk_ and _Dark of the Moon_ are available together in the volume _Dark of the Gods_. _Seeker’s Mask_ is separate. _Blood and Ivory_ is a collection of short stories, mostly about the protagonist of the novels, although it also includes a Sherlock Holmes story with a sort of gothic horror bent. They feature blood feuds, berserkers, twisted honor codes, theocide, a race of monotheists who aren’t on speaking terms with their god, and a millenia-long retreat from a terrible foe. And in the middle of it all, an odd streak of humour to make it all bearable. _Godstalk_ has held onto its place as my favorite novel for nearly 25 years…and _Seeker’s Mask_ is one of the few real challengers to it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/52 "2006-01-31T17:49:15Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Exactly. I mean, within the first 50 pages of the first book, > > He has a character throw a seven year old boy out of a top story window out of fear that the boy just saw him committing incest with his sister. What’s more, the individual who commits that act ends up becoming a _protagonist_ in the third book! And a sympathetic one, at that! I do love this series. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/53 "2006-01-31T18:27:37Z")
> [@VCO3](#): > > I want to read everything else I can find by Mieville (i’m looking at that book of short stories). Me, too. I’ve yet to attempt one of his novels (don’t get too many novels read these days), but his “Report of Certain Events in London” from 2005’s \*Year’s Best Fantasy and Horror \* was wonderful. I like how his mind works. _Looking for Jake,_ I believe the collection is called. ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/54 "2006-02-01T04:15:10Z")
I’ve been following this thread and thought I’d second the recommendations for _The Book of the New Sun_ and the _Gormenghast_ novels. The reason I decided to make this post was that just tonight I began reading E.R. Eddison’s _The Worm Ouroboros_, which so far seems to fit what you’re looking for. I had heard of this book for many years, described as a “masterpiece of hedonism”. When _Lord of the Rings_ came out, it was said by some that this was the only book that was comparable in scope. It was first published in 1922, but Eddison had been imagining it for 30 years before, when he was 11. It seems to be impossible to find in stores, but it’s readily available on Amazon, so I recently got a copy and began it this evening. I’m only a few chapters into it, but I haven’t been this engrossed in a novel since I read _Gormenghast_ about seven years ago. It’s written in lofty, Shakespearean prose, which may turn some off (to my knowledge the book has never had more than a cult following), but Eddison really pulls it off well. I loved both _The Book of the New Sun_ and _Gormenghast_, so if you are also enjoying those, I feel confident in recommending _The Worm Ouroboros_ (even though I’ve only begun it). ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/55 "2006-02-01T05:49:20Z")
> [@Cabbage](#): > > It’s written in lofty, Shakespearean prose, which may turn some off (to my knowledge the book has never had more than a cult following), but Eddison really pulls it off well. > > I loved both _The Book of the New Sun_ and _Gormenghast_, so if you are also enjoying those, I feel confident in recommending _The Worm Ouroboros_ (even though I’ve only begun it). When you’re done reading _The Worm Ouroboros_ and are ready to turn pro, check out _The Night Land_, by William Hope Hodgson. You’ll decide that it’s either unutterably awful or one of the greatest works of fiction in the English language. Or maybe both. Ooh, and then there’s [M. P. Shiel](http://www.hippocampuspress.com/lovecrafts_library/house_of_sounds_and_others.html)… ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/56 "2006-02-01T06:03:24Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > When you’re done reading _The Worm Ouroboros_ and are ready to turn pro, check out _The Night Land_, by William Hope Hodgson. You’ll decide that it’s either unutterably awful or one of the greatest works of fiction in the English language. Or maybe both. > > Ooh, and then there’s [M. P. Shiel](http://www.hippocampuspress.com/lovecrafts_library/house_of_sounds_and_others.html)… Actually, believe it or not _The Night Land_ has recently been on the short list of books I want to read in the near future. I read his _The House on the Borderland_ a few years ago and enjoyed it. I’m only familiar with (i.e., never read) _The Purple Cloud_ by M. P. Shiel and don’t know much about him, but your link looks interesting; I’ll definitely have to check him out! ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378/57 "2006-02-01T06:15:41Z")
And of course, I only now see that I forgot to put in a link to the Hodgson book. [Here](http://www.nightshadebooks.com/book.aspx?bookid=118) ya go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-dark-fantasy-as-a-genre-exist/338378.md?page=2)