# Does descriptive linguistics mean "anything goes"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 5, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005 "2022-09-05T17:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/261 "2022-09-23T14:19:49Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A few years back, there was a thread on what is known in Black communities as “Ebonics”, which was being pushed by some people to be accepted as a language in its own right or, at the very least, descriptive linguistics. To say that AAVE “is” descriptive linguistics is like saying _the planet Jupiter is astronomy_. > [@Jasmine](#): > > My comment was that it was simply poor English with proper schooling being the cure. Your claim had no more validity than telling a _French_ speaker that their unfamiliar usage could be corrected to English with proper schooling. Claims like this are perfectly correlated with ignorance of the nature of language, and to be brutally honest you appear to be no exception. If you’re interested in changing that, I’d recommend _The Language Instinct_ by Stephen Pinker. It’s highly accessible, non-technical and entertaining. [The Language Instinct - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Language_Instinct) > [@Jasmine](#): > > I faced some animosity for that but, based on most of the comments from various prominent members of the Black community, many in the Black community itself seemed to agree with me. AAVE is a dialect with rules of grammar that are just as strict and consistent as any “standard” dialect. They are just _different_ rules. The is no objective linguistic sense in which standard English is “better” or “more correct”. It is just the dialect spoken by the hegemony. The relationship to education is not that AAVE needs to be “corrected” to standard English. It is that native AAVE speakers who want to succeed in a world where all the power is held by people who speak a different dialect must _learn_ that other dialect. To them, it’s a second language. They then switch into standard English in certain situations according to pragmatic social considerations. AAVE speakers with less education obviously tend to be less skilled at this. Not all African Americans speak AAVE; and even if they did, the majority of people do not have good insight into the nature of their own language (or language in general). But what “many in the Black community” certainly do see is that their kids will have poor prospects in this world if they don’t learn to code switch. > [@Jasmine](#): > > So would you consider Ebonics to fall within, “the persistent fallacy that descriptivism means anything goes”? Are you asking whether any linguist would endorse your offensive and misguided derogatory characterization of AAVE? I’d suggest you read the Pinker book and go from there. You could also try reading this thread, which addresses these issues. Also: [African-American Vernacular English - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_English) [Code-switching - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code-switching) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/262 "2022-09-23T14:24:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Your claim had no more validity than telling a _French_ speaker that their unfamiliar usage could be corrected to English with proper schooling. I don’t feel that is valid analogy because French is a totally different language, whereas Ebonics is a different usage of English. So, how would you classify Ebonics? A dialect of English, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/263 "2022-09-23T14:30:16Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I don’t feel that is valid analogy because French is a totally different language, whereas Ebonics is a different usage of English. It’s valid in reference to your derogatory comments. You wouldn’t tell a French speaker that their language is shit. So why would you take that attitude with a speaker of a different dialect of English? Why does the fact that French is _more_ different from your own dialect grant it the respect that you deny AAVE? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/264 "2022-09-23T14:43:40Z")
So … your answer is, “Yes, I consider it a valid dialect of the English language.” Right? I’m just trying to understand you. Here’s an interesting article on the subject that tries to explain how and why the movement died out. > **[Whatever Happened to Ebonics?](https://larrycuban.wordpress.com/2018/04/04/whatever-happened-to-ebonics/)** > > Ebonics was the short-lived Oakland (CA) School Board’s approved program (1996) to teach  black students to parse the way they naturally spoke and wrote at home, in the neighborhood, and with… At any rate, thanks for your input. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/265 "2022-09-23T14:52:03Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > So … your answer is, “Yes, I consider it a valid dialect of the English language.” The notion that a dialect could be “invalid” is a category error. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/266 "2022-09-23T15:00:04Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > So … your answer is, “Yes, I consider it a valid dialect of the English language.” Right? I’m just trying to understand you. Yes, AAVE is a dialect of American English, like Cajun Vernacular, Chicano-English, Pennsylvania Dutch English, the geographical dialects like Inland North (here in the Chicago area), Texan English, Appalachian English, Southern English, etc. They all have their internally consistent grammars and vocabularies; some stray more from Standard American English than others, but they all deviate in ways. They are all dialects. There is no “valid” or “invalid” about it. Read the AAVE Wikipedia article linked to above if you want to educate yourself a bit about it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/267 "2022-09-23T15:15:31Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > So … your answer is, “Yes, I consider it a valid dialect of the English language.” Right? I’m just trying to understand you. Lemme turn this back on you. Where I live, if I broke my arm, I’d go to the hospital. Were I a Londoner who broke my arm, I’d go to hospital. Which is correct, and which should be fixed through proper schooling? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/268 "2022-09-23T15:44:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, AAVE is a dialect of American English, like Cajun Vernacular, Chicano-English, Pennsylvania Dutch English, the geographical dialects like Inland North (here in the Chicago area), Texan English, Appalachian English, Southern English, etc. And each have contexts in which it would be a good choice for a native speaker of the dialect to use the dialect, and contexts in which speaking somewhat fluently in the dominant culture’s dialect would be a better choice. A French native living in Chicago would be at a disadvantage if they could not express themself in a manner clearly understood by Chicagoans. Speaking a language or a dialect that is not clearly understandable by the intended audience, or which gives the impression of poor education, can perhaps be considered an incorrect choice? Dialects and languages are not objectively valid or invalid, correct or incorrect, but they are appropriate or inappropriate for different contexts. Using a dialect in a context inappropriate for its use communicates meaning beyond the intended message. We can double back to the person LHOD invited to speak to the class of schoolchildren. The words and language usage employed was very likely decent standard English AND they were a bad choice for the audience. Referring to concepts as “orthogonal” to each is clear communication in a few venues but will be at best not well understood in another, or even interpreted as being a condescending pretentious egghead in some. The default appropriate dialect is not always the one used by the most highly educated class. Politicians at least often recognize that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/269 "2022-09-23T15:48:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But if I’m not their teacher, then no, it’s not appropriate for me to point that out. Neither would I, but is it inherently classist when such is done? I must admit I have on many occasions learned some things from the comments of pedants. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/270 "2022-09-23T15:48:16Z")
Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/271 "2022-09-23T15:57:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Lemme turn this back on you. Where I live, if I broke my arm, I’d go to the hospital. Were I a Londoner who broke my arm, I’d go to hospital. An interesting note on this usage that came up recently in a conversation, is that an American will say this even in a city with several hospitals, even when more than one of which is in the person’s medical plan, and to the statement “I need to go to the hospital,” it’s a legitimate response to say “which one?” Generally, when something is preceded by the definite article, “which one?” is not an appropriate response, except as humor, ie, “The president is holding a rally tonight” / “Which one?” You would not say “The university” in a town with two, unless, you were, say a registered student at one, or standing on the campus of one, or there were some other reason that the definite article would be understood. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/272 "2022-09-23T16:07:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Neither would I, but is it inherently classist when such is done? The underlying assumptions may certainly be classist or racist without any conscious intent or awareness on the part of the pointer-outer. > [@DSeid](#): > > I must admit I have on many occasions learned some things from the comments of pedants. So have I. That they are usually wrong, and therefore not really pedants. In order to fit the definition of a pedant, you must be a a bit of a jerk; but it is also a necessary condition that you must be _correct_. If you claim that “less people” is an error because it _should be_ (in some ill-defined absolute sense beyond just a stylistic preference) “fewer people”, then you are not a pedant. You are simply wrong. So I guess I would agree that it’s true that commentary from “pedants” has granted me insight in some things, but that’s largely through the motivation to try to understand it better, not because they taught me _how_ to understand it better. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/273 "2022-09-23T16:17:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Neither would I, but is it inherently classist when such is done? Again, it’s asking folks to conform to bourgeoinics. There is an inherently class-based criticism involved. Whether it’s “classist” depends on the nature of the relationship and of the critique. If my brother sends me an email including the word “alot,” and I correct it, there’s no reason for me to do so except that I’m confusing middle-class orthography with “correct” orthography. I think that’s inherently classist. If my student uses the word “alot” in a written paper, or if I’m editing someone’s college essay, or if I’m in any other context with an editorial/pedagogical role, it’s appropriate for me to help them write in middle-class orthography. By way of example, if I see someone walking, is it appropriate for me to tell them that they’re walking incorrectly in some way? Perhaps it is: maybe I’m a dance instructor who needs to remind them to lead with their left foot, or maybe we’re playing a game together that forbids both feet being off the ground simultaneously, or maybe even we’re in line, and they’re behind me and keep bumping into me. But absent some strange context, it’s really obnoxious, and factually incorrect, for me to tell them that they’re walking incorrectly. As long as their feet are taking them to their desired destination, that’s what walking _is_, there’s no “correct” or “incorrect” about it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/274 "2022-09-23T16:37:46Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So have I. That they are usually wrong, and therefore not really pedants. In order to fit the definition of a pedant, you must be a a bit of a jerk; but it is also a necessary condition that you must be _correct_. I have great confidence that my baseline ignorance of “proper” language usage far exceeds yours. In short my mileage varies, as I have more to learn. Most of the time I find either they are right, or someone else comes along to correct the correction … either way I learn. So long as it doesn’t hijack the main discussion, I am happy to be that marginally less ignorant than I was. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/275 "2022-09-23T16:44:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is an inherently class-based criticism involved Is there though? Let’s stick with the French analogy. Imagining myself as a native speaker of English now living in France trying to gain fluency as I struggle along. I’d actually appreciate some gentle corrections to my confused usage and poor pronunciations. I might get frustrated but I would not consider those correcting me as inherently expressing cultural superiority. They might have such, it is France, but not necessarily! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/276 "2022-09-23T17:31:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Let’s stick with the French analogy. Imagining myself as a native speaker of English now living in France trying to gain fluency as I struggle along. I’d actually appreciate some gentle corrections to my confused usage and poor pronunciations. I might get frustrated but I would not consider those correcting me as inherently expressing cultural superiority. They might have such, it is France, but not necessarily! The struggle and lack of fluency is a key distinction. A person who uses “alot” is presumably fluent in English and can communicate with other fluent English-speakers just fine. I am their peer, not someone more fluent than them. If I’m struggling along in French and say “en droit” to mean “to the right”, that’s no the sort of mistake a fluent French speaker makes. I’m not the Francophonic peer of a native French speaker; and if I’m clearly struggling, it’s cool for someone to help me out. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/277 "2022-09-23T17:35:09Z")
Is my analogy above fair? The answer hinges on whether or not there are contexts in which the dialect of the land is in fact clearly the language of the more educated class, if that is the room we are in, and social contexts of the room. I don’t mind a peer educating me in my use of English. I like it. I previously shared how I had misread “alcove”as “aclove” and then said it like that for a long time until someone finally pointed my error out. I was happy that someone let me know. Yes it may be etiquette to have my zipper closed, but if it is open someone letting me know is better than pretending to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/278 "2022-09-23T18:06:07Z")
There’s a difference between “alot” and “aclove.” Saying “aclove” is an understandable thing to do if you’ve only encountered the word in its written form, but if you say that, it’s going to run afoul of the #1 rule of language. Namely, you’re unlikely to get your intended meaning across to your intended audience. Even if you do, it’s going to take them a lot of processing power to figure out what you’re trying to say, so you’ll break the #2 rule, i.e., you won’t get it across smoothly. Whereas if you write “alot,” you’re likely not breaking the #1 rule. It’s tricky to think of a non-contrived example where a reader would be confused. You might break the #2 rule, depending on context. Your comparison to etiquette is a good one. Having your zipper down is this weird edge-case in etiquette where the faux pas is so great that almost anyone is allowed by etiquette to correct it. There are very, very few etiquette matters where it’s considered acceptable to correct a stranger. I think the linguistic equivalent of having your zipper down would be the unintentional use of outdated or offensive language. If someone said something about the Oriental lady at the bank, or about how they’d been gypped by an Ebay seller, it’d be okay to mention that maybe they don’t want to use that word, in the same way that you might tell someone their zipper is down. Short of some egregious linguistic faux pas like that, correcting a fluent speaker’s language because it doesn’t conform to middle-class dialect isn’t something worth doing outside of a teacher/student (or editorial) relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Paxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@Paxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paxx)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/279 "2022-09-23T18:29:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I mean, thanks for the history lesson - but what do you think if the probability is that someone who chose to be named after Riemann on here with an avatar of gravitational lensing doesn’t know this? I thought of this when I was composting my post and concluded that the probability was greater than 50%, given that your analogy was historically inaccurate. > [@Riemann](#): > > The intended features of the analogy were that the prescriptivist “rules” were not based on observation, and that in fact the prescriptivist could not really identify _any_ source for the claimed rules (“God”). Whereas the descriptivist astronomer was certainly not coming in and suggesting that planets can move in any and all directions at whim, in fact they were observing how planets actually move and deriving precise equations of motion. I think this is where you get in trouble with any analogy involving astronomy — the “prescriptivist” rules were based on observation, i.e. how the planets were perceived to move by an observer on Earth. In fact, the most precise observations were by Tycho Brahe, who rejected heliocentrism and had logical reasons for doing so. The right combination of circular orbits could explain planetary motion, along with a stationary Earth. Of course, Scripture did interfere. > [@Riemann](#): > > If you read the thread, or even just the OP, I’m obviously not claiming that all languages/dialects have the _same_ rules. You’re ignoring what I said: > [@Paxx](#): > > It seems, though, from the rest of your post, that you’re not talking about [linguistic universals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_universal) but, rather, about the descriptive rules of English. In any case, I agree with most of what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005/280 "2022-09-23T18:39:52Z")
> [@Paxx](#): > > I think this is where you get in trouble with any analogy involving astronomy Any ideas for a better analogy, involving hard science and the laws of nature? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-descriptive-linguistics-mean-anything-goes/971005.md?page=15)