# Does domesticating a species always require lots of breeding toward that end or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 3, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688 "2009-01-03T08:14:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/21 "2009-01-04T12:32:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A start to what? A start to assembling solid evidence that the earlier domesticated horses were too small to ride. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/22 "2009-01-04T12:34:28Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > But I doubt that a definitive cite will ever be available – the domestication of horses occurred before the invention of writing, I believe. It seems to me that the answer ought to be out there from horse skeletons. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/23 "2009-01-04T17:18:41Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > That doesn’t seem to gel with the archaeological or the ethological evidence. Wolves and dogs are quite different behaviourally and phenotypically, and while dog bones show up commonly in archaeological sites in widespread locations simultaneously, wolf bones are very rare. Which suggests that the domestication of wolves was quite difficult, took a prolonged period and probably only happened once in the Middle east and that once dogs were created from wolves the individuals were traded far and wide. > > That’s quite different to your claim that it was easy and that it took little effort which should have resulted in multiple domestications. > > As for the amount of effort or its deliberateness, that’s impossible to judge. It’s very likely that as with most domestic animals dogs started out as commensals, with humans and wolves hunting alongside each other and stealing the game that each other flushed, much as hawks hunt alongside badgers. Over time people would have killed any wolf that showed signs of being agressive, especially to children. Simultaneously any wolves that pointed out prey hidden in hollow logs or up trees that the wolves themselves couldn’t get to would gain survival advantage, either through delibertate human reward or simply through the scraps left behind. So the wolves would evolve to become both less agressive and less independent. > > Humans tribes would also develop relationships with preferred wolf packs, and would very likely help preferred packs extend their range through offering protection. AFter all if I’m going to be hunitng alongside a commmensal pack it might as well be the pack that offers me the most food. So when I cross a pack’s border my pack can follow because I’ll protect it by chasing off more agressive and independent packs. > > That wasn’t deliberate in the sense that humans had a set outcome in mind, however they almost certainly were deliberately removing wolves with charteristics they didn’t want, so to that extent is was deliberate. > > I suspect that most domestication was of that kind. People followed herds of migratory animals such as reindeer or cattle and protected them from _other_ predators while selectively killing or driving off the most agressive or skittish individuals. Over millenia that results in something like what we see with the Laps and their herds: wild animals that are dependent on humans for protection and quite tame enough for individuals to be led away from the herd and quietly slaughtered. The line between a domesticated cow or reindeer and a wild individual was never sharp and distinct. It happened slowly and almost imperceptibly as the quieter animals prospered due to human protection and the more agressive or skittish animals were culled or driven off to be eaten by wolves. > And that probably answers the OP: they all require some degree of breeding, but that breeding can take many forms. If humans preferentially kill the more agressive and independent individuals, or drive them off so they breed less frequently or lose the protection of their herd, that is selective breeding. It’s not deliberate breeding in the sense that people had a desired outcome, it was probably accidental insofar as people preferentially cull the most troublesome animals. But it was breeding nonethless. > > By the time people were ready to try settling down as sedentary farmers, or to try riding these animals, they had already been unwittingly breeding for dometsic traits, like tractability and dependence on humans as herd leaders, for millenia. Their candiate animals were already far different genetically and behaviourally from the original wild stock. > > Yes but as far as this discussion goes it’s totally circular and as such totally irrelevant. It _only_ applies when the horses are going to be used for established carts and for riding, which of course the first transport horses can not have been. > > In contrast when wild horses are wanted just as mounts they are _never_ trained for harness first, they are simply broken to the saddle. > > I find it far easier to believe that someone tried sitting on their tame horse and discovered that it was effective than to believe that some neolithic woman hooked up a horse to her very valuable and totally unsuitable handcart and to risk it being kicked to pieces. > > Added to that, we know that in North America people domesticated horses exclusively for riding without ever neding to hitch them to carts. Good post, except I think the consensus belief is that dogs were originally domesticated from wolves in Central Asia, not the Middle East. Also, Native Americans used horses (and dogs) to pull travois as well as to ride. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/24 "2009-01-04T17:43:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Added to that, we know that in North America people domesticated horses exclusively for riding without ever neding to hitch them to carts. To clarify, Native Americans did not exactly domesticate horses; they tamed feral horses descended from domesticated ones that had escaped from the Spanish (or captured them directly), and which were genetically distinct from true wild horses. ---
**Author:** ![popsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@popsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/popsy)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/25 "2009-01-04T19:47:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > In contrast when wild horses are wanted just as mounts they are _never_ trained for harness first, they are simply broken to the saddle. Many horses that are meant to be ridden are first taught to drive. Perhaps not in full harness, but in bridle, reins, and surcingle. Many ARE taught to pull before they are ridden as commands can be taught from the ground more safely in that fashion, and then translated to the saddle. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/26 "2009-01-04T20:07:43Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > The argument could be made that humans didn’t breed cats for domestication, they exploited a niche that formed because of humans, and as such developed in parallel with human culture. I was always fond of the theory that humans did not domesticate cats, but rather cats domesticated humans (but then, I’m a dog owner who realizes how well his dogs have trained him. I respond on command to the signals for “Pettings” and “Gotta pee!”) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/27 "2009-01-05T01:47:00Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > I was always fond of the theory that humans did not domesticate cats, but rather cats domesticated humans (but then, I’m a dog owner who realizes how well his dogs have trained him. I respond on command to the signals for “Pettings” and “Gotta pee!”) But that’s not the same thing. It’s simply that the process of domestication needn’t have been a conscious effort on our part at all, and that a sort of symbiotic relationship evolved naturally, with the result being domestication. The cats (or other animals) gained, and humans gains. I don’t know about cats, but there are many, many more dogs in the world today than the number of wolves that ever existed at any given time-- a big evolutionary benefit for that species. I suspect the same is true for cats. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/28 "2009-01-12T17:06:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > A start to assembling solid evidence that the earlier domesticated horses were too small to ride. The currently existing wild equids (zebras, wild asses, and Preswalski’s horse), although smaller than most domestic horses, are quite large enough to ride. And they’re certainly as large as modern ponies (and many pony breeds can be ridden by adult humans). So I find the idea that the earliest domestic horses would be too small to ride dubious in the extreme. A horse only needs to be about 13 hands high to be ridable by the average adult human. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/29 "2009-01-12T18:24:00Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Annoying animals end up in the stewpot first. Mmmmm, _annoying animal stew . . ._ Yeah, just like Grandma used to make. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/30 "2009-01-12T20:29:58Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > Mmmmm, _annoying animal stew . . ._ Band name, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/31 "2009-01-12T20:40:17Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Not as of the publication of “Guns, Germs and Steel” in the mid 1990s. The author’s interpretation is that prehistoric peoples likely made the same efforts towards domesticating every wild animal they found, and succeeded with those that were feasible at the time. Those that were infeasible are still so. > > There are a couple chapters in GGS that are strongly related to this question, and it’s worth looking at for those who are interested. One thing that I have wondered about Diamond. He claims that deer are impossible to domesticate owing to being too skittish. Has he ever been to Nara (Japan)? There are thousands of tame deer every where you go in Nara. No gardens though (unless behind high walls). ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/32 "2009-01-12T20:54:54Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > One thing that I have wondered about Diamond. He claims that deer are impossible to domesticate owing to being too skittish. Has he ever been to Nara (Japan)? There are thousands of tame deer every where you go in Nara. No gardens though (unless behind high walls). Tame is not the same as domesticated. “Domesticated” implies that, among other things, the animal reproduces in captivity, which not all animals, even if tamed, will do. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/33 "2009-01-12T21:04:32Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > One thing that I have wondered about Diamond. He claims that deer are impossible to domesticate owing to being too skittish. Has he ever been to Nara (Japan)? There are thousands of tame deer every where you go in Nara. No gardens though (unless behind high walls). Wow. Are they amicable to being petted? They sound cute! > **[File:Nara deer beg for handouts outside a shop on Sanjo Street.JPG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nara_deer_beg_for_handouts_outside_a_shop_on_Sanjo_Street.JPG)** > > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. > This file contains additional information such as Exif metadata which may have been added by the digital camera, scanner, or software program used to create or digitize it. If the file has been modified from its original state, some details such as the timestamp may not fully reflect those of the original file. The timestamp is only as accurate as the clock i... Found a pic of them begging for food. This could either be cute or annoying or scary. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/34 "2009-01-12T23:58:02Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > The currently existing wild equids (zebras, wild asses, and Preswalski’s horse), although smaller than most domestic horses, are quite large enough to ride. And they’re certainly as large as modern ponies (and many pony breeds can be ridden by adult humans). So I find the idea that the earliest domestic horses would be too small to ride dubious in the extreme. Thank you for the interesting point. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how would you explain the shift from chariots to mounted cavalry? Assuming such a shift took place? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/35 "2009-01-13T00:53:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Thank you for the interesting point. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but how would you explain the shift from chariots to mounted cavalry? Assuming such a shift took place? Up until the Middle Ages, mounted cavalry was just a way to get troops there faster. Mainly they rode to the battlefield, then dismounted, got out their swords, and fought on foot. Or they could ride fast to get to an important location on the battlefield, like the top of a hill or a river crossing, gain control of that, and hold it till the rest of their foot soldiers arrived. The mass cavalry charge, with armored riders attacking with lances, didn’t start to happen until quite a bit later. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/36 "2009-01-13T01:54:47Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Up until the Middle Ages, mounted cavalry was just a way to get troops there faster. Mainly they rode to the battlefield, then dismounted, got out their swords, and fought on foot. Or they could ride fast to get to an important location on the battlefield, like the top of a hill or a river crossing, gain control of that, and hold it till the rest of their foot soldiers arrived. > > The mass cavalry charge, with armored riders attacking with lances, didn’t start to happen until quite a bit later. Is there any particular reason for that change, or was it just that for years nobody could buy into the idea of fighting from horseback? “Are you nuts, someone could fall and get hurt!” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688/37 "2009-01-13T03:03:05Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Is there any particular reason for that change.. [The invention of the stirrup](http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_madeinchina/2005-07/21/content_70825.htm). More accurately it was the spread of stirrup technology by the “Mongol” invasions of Europe and the Middle East that lead to the chivalrous (literally cavalry) traditions of the middle ages. Without stirrups horses were still important on the battlefield, but the choices were either to use them as dragoons as t-bonham noted, or to use them as platforms for mounted artillery. Mounted artillery were particularly useful because they were all but invincible and could break up defensive formations. They move in close to the enemy, let fly with a few missiles and retreat without ever being open to effective attack themselves. In East and Central Asia the mounted artillery tended to be mounted archers, probably due to terrain. In the Middle east and Meditteranean battle fields were more often open plains and the advantages to using chariots and drivers to provide stable firing platforms led to them being preferred, either for archers or javelineers. But there is no evidence in any of this history to suggest that horses were used with chariots before being ridden. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-domesticating-a-species-always-require-lots-of-breeding-toward-that-end-or-not/479688.md?page=1)