# Does easier access to porn result in less rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2009, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156 "2009-05-03T06:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/41 "2009-05-04T21:11:41Z")
Oy vay, I can’t believe this conversation still goes on at all, seriously. From a 14 page report: [PORNOGRAPHY, SEX CRIME, AND PUBLIC POLICY Berl Kutchinsky Professor of Criminology Institute of Criminology and Criminal Science University of Copenhagen Denmark](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf) > [@](#): > > One of the first authoritative bodies to spell out an unequivocal verdict of not guilty for > pornography was the Danish Medico-Legal Council whose 1965 report to the Danish Penal > Law Committee concluded that, to the Council’s knowledge, based on criminological and > clinical evidence ‘there exists no scientific investigations to form a basis for the supposition > that pornography . . . can contribute to normal adult’s or young persons’ committing sexual > offences’ (Penal Law Committee 1966, p. 80). This distinguished body of forensic > physicians and psychiatrists explicitly mentioned that the statement referred to pornographic > writings, pictures and films describing normal as well as perverted sexual phenomena. > Five years later the United States Commission on Obscenity and Pornography (1970, > p. 53) (or rather twelve of the seventeen participating members) arrived at a similar > conclusion, stating that ‘empirical research designed to clarify the question has found no > evidence to date that exposure to explicit sexual materials plays a significant role in the > causation of delinquent or criminal behaviour among youth or adults’. Another verdict of notguilty > ¾but this time based on overwhelming amounts of research: careful reviews of earlier > research and thirty-nine additional effect studies sponsored by the Commission. > According to these studies, sex offenders generally reported sexually repressive family > backgrounds, immature and inadequate sexual histories and rigid, conservative attitudes > towards sexuality. During adolescence they had less experience with erotica than other > groups. As adults, sex offenders seemed to catch up with other categories, but did not use > pornography more frequently than others; and sex offenders did not differ significantly from > other adults in their reported arousal or reported likelihood of engaging in sexual behaviour > during or following exposure to pornography. > The problems with these studies was, of course, that they had to rely on the subjects’ > own reports about their reactions to pornography and did not study experience with and > reactions to aggressive pornography. Both of these shortcomings were overcome by a > number of researchers in the late 1970s who, applying modern sexological laboratory > techniques, were able to measure erectile responses in convicted rapists and normals who > were watching, listening to, or reading depictions of sexual activities including consenting and > coercive sex. The first results (several studies by Abel, Barbaree, Marshall, Quinsey and > others) seemed very promising: while normals showed greater arousal to scenes of mutually > consenting sex than they did to similar scenes involving coerced sex, rapists appeared to be > equally aroused by the consensual and the coerced scenes. > However, subsequent large-scale replications of these studies, as well as a more recent > intensive study have shown that among a group of rapists, arousal to forced sex was > significantly lower than it was to consenting sex; moreover, the rapists did not differ in this > regard from groups of ordinary men (Kutchinsky 1991; forthcoming). > Meanwhile, despite the negative findings of the United States Obscenity Commission, > which were later reiterated by the British Williams Committee in 1979, the idea that > pornography may be the direct cause of rape had continued to gain support among antipornography > groups; and since the mid-1970s the Christian/Conservative moralists > viewpoints (which had been voiced, among others, by the minority of the U.S. Obscenity > Commission) were joined by feminist oriented groups and authors in the USA. Leading > figures included Brownmiller, Lederer, Russel, Dworkin and Morgan, who publicised the > slogan: ‘Pornography is the theory, and rape is the practice’. > Feminists’ claimed that the growing availability of increasingly more violent and > misogynous pornography was the direct cause of increasing numbers of increasingly violent > rapes. And this, in turn, was a major inspiration to a new wave of research, mainly in the > USA, seeking to demonstrate such a connection. The authors of this research¾Malamuth, > Donnerstein, Zillmann, Check and many others¾criticised the Obscenity Commission for not > taking into consideration the long-term effects of aggressive pornography. This criticism is > not altogether justified, since the Commission had in fact solicited relatively long-term studies > of pornography which included sadomasochistic varieties. > Methodologically, the inspiration for the new wave Then go to page 7 of 14: > [@](#): > > Although one should always be cautious when comparing crime statistics from > different countries, it can safely be said that the only country in which there has been a > marked increase of officially recorded incidents of rape during this period is the USA > (where, on the other hand, neither of the plateaus in the mid-seventies and since 1979 is > easily explained with reference to pornography). In West Germany, the level has remained > remarkably steady throughout the period. In Denmark and Sweden there are moderate > increases from or after the mid-seventies. In both cases it is likely that at least some of the > increase is due to increased reporting and registration of rape, as a result of growing > awareness of the rape problem among women as well as the police. There are strong > indications that even in the USA, the increase of rape since the mid-1970s may be due to > increased reporting/ > registration (Kutchinsky 1991). > > Rape, however, cannot be considered as an isolated social phenomenon. For a > criminological appreciation of the development of reported rape over time, it is necessary to > look at trends in incidence of other crimes during the same period. Since forcible rape is, by > legal definition, both a violent crime and a sex crime, a comparison with non-sexual crimes > of violence and with non-violent sex crimes would seem reasonable. Such a comparison has > been made for each of the four countries¾to the extent accessible data permit (see > Figures 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6). To enable comparisons of crime rates of very different sizes, > indexes have been computed, in all cases departing from index 100 in 1964. If I made the rules, I’d make everyone who wants to speak in this thread go read that first. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/42 "2009-05-04T21:26:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The study presented in the op underwhelms. It is no more convincing of an argument than are the converse [studies](http://books.google.com/books?id=qObabPbmEgIC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=pornography+use+by+rapists+percent&source=bl&ots=vgUVqQkbhO&sig=nvGfY-CnDIOPSyTd2C8WcUkoIeY&hl=en&ei=x0T_Sfn3NpCmM-ma1dQE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1) which demonstrate that rapists have had more exposure to pornography than have control populations (so therefore that porn exposure causes rape). No. That rapist seek out porn doesn’t contradict the findings of the study. At question is if there are people who _would_ be rapists, but due to the avalibility of porn, don’t commit any rapes. What people who do commit rapes do vis-a-vis porn doesn’t really make a difference. After all, it’s pretty obvious easily available porn doesn’t prevent _all_ rapes. > [@](#): > > [Homicide rates](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm) have also declined since the internet was created; is the internet protective from homicide? Autism rates have increased; the internet must cause autism. But that’s just a parody of what the study cited by the OP says. It doesn’t just make a hand-waving argument that since the internet showed up, rapes have gone down. It says that in otherwise analogous populations, those with earlier or more internet adoption have had earlier or more intense decreases in incidence of rape. If you could show that such a correlation also existed for autism or homicide, then that to would in fact suggest that internet use is linked with those things. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/43 "2009-05-04T21:28:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Today magazines cover every fetish imaginable. Magazines? They still make porn magazines? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/44 "2009-05-04T21:33:23Z")
While I’m not certain it can lead certain men to rape who wouldn’t otherwise (assuming we’re not talking about child pornography), I think there’s a pretty good argument for overexposure to porn being [detrimental](http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/83/pornocalypse_now.html?page=1) to both men and women’s sex lives. I’d also be curious to know whether being exposed to violence and violent porn might cause teens and adults to define rape differently (i.e. as ‘rough sex’ even if someone said ‘No,’ as ‘Not really rape’ if there was no physical violence, etc.). (And the idea that rape is _only_ about sex or _only_ about power is worth debating, but, I think, ultimately un-solvable. Especially when wartime rape and cases like [this](http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-10112560-details/Grandmother+raped+twice+on+way+to+work/article.do) enter the equation.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/45 "2009-05-04T22:04:44Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Rape is not about sex. It is about power, domination, humiliation and control. That’s a claim based purely on ideology, with nothing to back it up. For that matter, it denies human nature; men want sex with women; some men are ruthless enough to take what they want by force; therefore some men will rape women. Are you actually claiming this never happens ? That no matter how ruthless a man is, he’ll never rape unless he has a power issue with women ? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/46 "2009-05-04T22:05:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > … If you could show that such a correlation also existed for autism or homicide, then that to would in fact suggest that internet use is linked with those things. You mean something like [this](http://www.johnson.cornell.edu/faculty/profiles/waldman/autpaper.html)? > [@](#): > > if television is a trigger for autism, then autism should be more prevalent in communities that receive substantial precipitation. We then look at county-level autism data for three states – California, Oregon, and Washington – characterized by high precipitation variability. Employing a variety of tests, we show that in each of the three states (and across all three states when pooled) there is substantial evidence that county autism rates are indeed positively related to county-wide levels of precipitation. In our final set of tests we use California and Pennsylvania data on children born between 1972 and 1989 to show, again consistent with the television as trigger hypothesis, that county autism rates are also positively related to the percentage of households that subscribe to cable television. Our precipitation tests indicate that just under forty percent of autism diagnoses in the three states studied is the result of television watching due to precipitation, while our cable tests indicate that approximately seventeen percent of the growth in autism in California and Pennsylvania during the 1970s and 1980s is due to the growth of cable television. Oh, let’s have more fun. Autism rates among the Amish, who do not have the internet or TV? 1 in 15,000. In the rest of America? Roughly 1 in 200. You can find all sorts of correlations that mean nothing at all. To jump from correlation to causation leads to all sorts of silly conclusions. These are not controlled studies and there is no reason to believe that early adoptng communities are analogous in all other ways to those that are later adopters. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/47 "2009-05-04T22:38:57Z")
I don’t know where I fall in this. I can certainly believe that the premise in the OP is true, that porn can be an outlet and reduce desire in some men. But I have a hard time believing that violent porn images don’t also have a negative effect. If images don’t nudge behavior then there are a lot of companies wasting $billions on advertising. I kind of lean towards the two effects canceling each other out. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/48 "2009-05-04T22:58:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Oy vay, I can’t believe this conversation still goes on at all, seriously… > > … If I made the rules, I’d make everyone who wants to speak in this thread go read that first. I’m not quite sure what point you think that article makes. Per your link: It may be that rapists experience no more erection arousal from scenes of coreced sex than do other males - both groups experiencing less erectile responsiveness to “aggressive porn” than to portrayals of consensual sex, in at least some studies. So? If anything that supports the contention that rape is not about sexual arousal/satisfaction but about power, as rapists are, if anything, not especially _sexually_ aroused by scenes of coerced sex. If it was about sex then consensual sex - perhaps even by way of payment, would be preferred as an outlet over the riskier coercive approach. And per your cite, rape numbers need to be interpreted with great caution - internationally there has been no clear pattern of increase or decrease compared to violent crime in general during the internet era and many confounding factors come into play that makes use of these statistics very tricky indeed. The article makes a good case that the statistics in aggregate do not support the hypothesis that pornography in general increases rape in a significant manner. The same data set showing no significant believable significant increase or decrease across countries through times of variable porn accessibility also supports the hypothesis that pornogrphy does not reduce rape in any significant way. Which is the proposition of the thread. All that can be said is that any possible effect in either direction is small enough as to be swamped by the potential changes in reporting, definition, and other cultural changes. Neither hypothesis is supported or denied completely. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/49 "2009-05-05T05:54:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I see no evidence that most rape is anything more than a combination of sexual frustration and ruthlessness. > > I do think that the rise in respect for women has a lot to do with the reduction in rapes as well, however. While I don’t believe that rape is normally \* part of some male plot to reduce women to just sex objects, I’m quite sure that men who just look at women as sex objects are more likely to rape. Depends on what you mean by rape. Most rape in the US is date rape. That can run the gamut from “I misunderstood what she wanted” to drunken Yah Dude douchebag/ stereotypical frat boy shit. I do know that the biggest reason why date rape is so hard to really reduce is b/c the guy very often thinks " Oh I’m not a rapist" I don’t condone date rape…but I mean we do live in a society that tends to pussyfoot around about interactions in intiminate relationships. With that sort of stuff, it’s easy to understand how date rape can and does happen. With “classic” rape it’s not about sexual frustration, at ALL. Anyone remember the Glen Ridge gang rape on a retarded girl? (for those of us who are closet Lifetime movie addicts this was Outrage in Glen Ridge) These were Yah Dudes who could have ANY girl they wanted. In fact, they were rather active sexually. Yet they raped a retarded girl for absolutly no reason at all. I know of another case where a married jr high gym teacher raped/seduced two girls despite being “happily married” Classic rape has nothing to do with sexual frustration. …It’s mostly sociopathicly fucked up behavoir. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/50 "2009-05-05T14:35:40Z")
IMO legalised and regulated prostitution would probably have a definite impact on rape figures. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/51 "2009-05-05T14:58:59Z")
I have heard a thousand times that rape is not about sex. I am not sure i accept that. It is first about sex. Power and strength are the tools and humiliation is the byproduct. Rape has to be forced and it requires power and subjugation. But I don’t think it is done to conquer. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/52 "2009-05-07T02:18:29Z")
No…the only way it’s about sex is b/c a penis is used as a weapon. A penis is used to humiliate the other person. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/53 "2009-05-07T02:21:59Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#): > > No…the only way it’s about sex is b/c a penis is used as a weapon. A penis is used to humiliate the other person. And your evidence for that is ? As I said before; are you going to claim that ruthless men who have no particular power issues with women are going to refrain from rape ? For no particular reason ? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/54 "2009-05-07T02:29:25Z")
An analogous question is this: **Would the availability of pictures/media of dead animals or hunting reduce the actual occurrence of hunting?** I suspect not, in reference to both questions, as “the hunt” itself might be central to the drive, and symbolic depictions might not cut it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/55 "2009-05-07T02:35:38Z")
Does raping yourself count? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/56 "2009-05-07T02:44:35Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Does raping yourself count? That depends, was at least one of you intoxicated? ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/57 "2009-05-07T02:47:38Z")
How can you force yourself on yourself? Rape is non-consensual sexual activity…I suppose that if you did yourself when intoxicated or mentally incompetent that you could argue that you were not capable of consensual sex (even with yourself). ---
**Author:** ![redshift](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbce88/32.png) [@redshift](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redshift)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/58 "2009-05-07T02:49:10Z")
More people at home watching porn means less people out raping. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/59 "2009-05-07T02:53:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t remember kids shooting up schools when I was young. In fact, we could carry knives to school and there were shooting clubs. but we’re getting off on a parallel topic. > > I can’t imagine that an increase in aggressive porn would yield fewer rapes. > **[Home](https://bjs.ojp.gov)** > > The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) is the United States' primary source for criminal justice statistics that cover a wide range of topics. Now, I’m not going to argue that violent media (sexual or otherwise) is going to CAUSE less rapes (or ice pick shankings or whatever else), but you can’t honestly look at that graph and tell me it’s CAUSING more problems. [This](http://rorschach.test.at/mindflux/mv1-articles/violence.html) study from the university of Adelaide also points towards the fact that while it is true violent media (though this specifically deals with the “shoot people in the face” type of violence) increases feelings of aggression, it also appears that it also increases anger management and that the most frequent players of the more violent material actually viewed the game as more violent (meaning, I would guess, they realized in more depth how bad actually doing that would be). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156/60 "2009-05-07T03:33:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That depends, was at least one of you intoxicated? bof’us wuz and I slipped me a rufie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-easier-access-to-porn-result-in-less-rape/495156.md?page=4)