# Does Ed Brown have legal standing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2007, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904 "2007-02-05T09:00:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/21 "2007-02-06T16:25:45Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] This analysis is a bit flawed. There are a variety of people who do not pay income taxes. If you are what they call the “working poor” you don’t pay income taxes. In fact, thanks to the EITC, you may get back more from the government in a “tax refund” than you paid in income taxes. So there are a number of people who benefit from government services who do not pay taxes. I’d be tempted to say that these people actually benefit more from government services (such as Medicaid, TANF, free and reduced school lunches, etc.) than people who make enough income to pay taxes. The U.S. tax system is not set up on your idea that if you derive a service from the government, you should make just compensation. You are trying to make it out like he’s stealing from the government or otherwise being immoral by not wanting to pay taxes. I think his logic is flawed, but he’s certainly not stealing or being immoral in my view. He is simply trying to put himself in the same boat as millions of other Americans who consume government services and yet do not pay taxes. [/QUOTE] But he wants to do that **without** being dirt-poor and living in a crime-ridden housing project. Can’t have your cake and eat it, Ed. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/22 "2007-02-06T16:31:19Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But he wants to do that **without** being dirt-poor and living in a crime-ridden housing project. Can’t have your cake and eat it, Ed. [/QUOTE] Plenty of people who are not dirt-poor and who do not live in public housing do not pay income taxes. You can earn a decent amount of money (especially if you have a few kids) and still be exempt from paying income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/23 "2007-02-07T17:15:45Z")
Look at the picture of Brown in the link, then read this – > [@](#): > > Ed Brown, **a retired** **exterminator** , stayed home to protest a system he said had already convicted him and a media he said was in search of soundbites over truth. > > “Most Americans would cower and cringe and raise their hands and surrender like a good little slave,” he said this week. > > “I won’t. Under no circumstances. I do not tolerate cowardliness, oppression, bulliness, and I certainly don’t tolerate a federal agency that has absolutely zero jurisdiction in my state, never mind in my county, in my town.” He’s [Dale Gribble!](http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/Samv6271/DaleGribble1.jpg)[More Dale.](http://www.fox.com/kingofthehill/bios/index.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/24 "2007-02-07T21:44:44Z")
From the story linked in the OP: > [@](#): > > Ed Brown heard of the verdict in the middle of an interview with a radio station. “The verdict is in. I can guarantee you all hell’s going to break loose,” he told WNTK-FM in New London. Is that just generical bluster, or does he have something specific in mind, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/25 "2007-02-07T21:49:21Z")
[Ed Brown’s latest message to the world.](http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=425&Itemid=36) From the [Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lewis_Brown) on Brown: > [@](#): > > Ed Brown lives in a green, energy-efficient home in New Hampshire that has been erroneously referred to as “a compound.”[5] He has said that he has a stock of food and supplies and that his home can run on wind and solar generators.[6] He has also stated publicly that he does not intend to go to to jail and is prepared to defend himself. A number of supporters are currently camped outside his home and have been encouraged to record any attempt to take Mr. Brown from his house. > > Rick Stanley, a Denver-based Web radio host and a militia leader, urged listeners to join Ed Brown at his home. [6] This might put the Feds in a difficult situation. They have to arrest him if the court orders it, but forcing their way in (even if that did not result in any injuries) would invite comparisons to certain events during the Clinton Admin . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/26 "2007-02-22T14:55:40Z")
Update: [He’s still holed up,](http://news.bostonherald.com/national/northeast/view.bg?articleid=184228) believe it or not. And his wife has rejoined him in defiance of a court order. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/27 "2007-02-22T15:20:29Z")
You have GOT to see his MySpace page: [here](http://www.myspace.com/time2makeastand) Please send gas masks, body armor and "1 Female 2-4 yrs old Doberman Pitcher dog " This is not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/28 "2007-02-22T15:37:41Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] You have GOT to see his MySpace page: [here](http://www.myspace.com/time2makeastand) Please send gas masks, body armor and "1 Female 2-4 yrs old Doberman Pitcher dog " This is not going to end well. [/QUOTE] That joke about “extra extreme” and “super extreme” items on his wish list was kinda cute. Except… what… does he have a little kid in there with him? -Kris ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/29 "2007-02-22T15:55:44Z")
When they came for the batshit crazies, I said nothing; after all, I am not batshit crazy… ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/30 "2007-02-22T16:21:21Z")
So who are all the people who support what this guy is doing? I mean, Ed and Elaine Brown’s motivation is fairly clear; they wanted to have more money than was possible under the present system, and they don’t want to go to jail for it. I obviously don’t agree with them, but at least I see _why_. But what of all of the posters to their website responding with messages of agreement and support? What…? why…? who…? \ ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/31 "2007-02-22T16:55:29Z")
His myspace blog offering $1,000,000 to anyone who can show him the law that says he has to pay income tax: > [@](#): > > The commercial office building property is valued at $1,000,000 + Dollars! > This reward is growing! > Lets make it the largest reward ever! > Our goal is 1 Billion! > The first person to show Ed the law that makes him liable to pay an income tax on his labor and compensation The response: > [@](#): > > I just sent you an email with a link to the section of the U.S. Code which includes all of the tax laws you are looking for. I expect you’ll try to argue your way out of this, but it’s a part of Title 26 of the U.S Code, and encompasses all current tax laws (including the one that says you have to pay them). > > Take it easy, and I hope to hear from you soon. My contact info is in the email! Ed Brown’s reply: > [@](#): > > Title 26 is NOT the law! > There is nothing to argue about! > Nice try! It’s not the law? The U.S. Code is _not the law??!?_ :smack: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/32 "2007-02-22T17:40:19Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] It’s not the law? The U.S. Code is _not the law??!?_ :smack: [/QUOTE] That is exactly the tax-protestors’ position – that certain parts of the U.S. Code are not the law. For their reasoning, such as it is, see the links in post #13. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/33 "2007-02-22T18:04:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That is exactly the tax-protestors’ position – that certain parts of the U.S. Code are not the law. For their reasoning, such as it is, see the links in post #13. [/QUOTE] I still can’t wrap my head around it, though. Some of the tax protester arguments at least make tortured crazy-sense if you squint hard enough, but arguing that the law is not the law just blows my mind. It’s just a willful, fundamental misunderstanding of what a “code” actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/34 "2007-02-22T18:18:27Z")
Yeah, it’s a weird mindset. On the one hand, the Illuminati have tricked the American people into giving up their freedoms and submitting to the illegal income tax. On the other hand, all you have to do is point out to the Illuminati judge that the income tax is illegal, and you won’t have to pay it. They’ll just let you go. Except, if the Illuminati really have taken over the United States and have desecrated the constitution, the fact that paying income tax is illegal is meaningless. The judge is still going to have you thrown in jail, the prison guards are still going to keep you there, the banks are still going to turn over your assets on orders from the government. So the legalistic tax evasion theories are just stupid. If you take as a premise that the income tax is an illegal deprivation of your rights, how can you imagine that more illegal deprivations of your rights won’t ensue if you avoid paying the illegal tax? You can’t tell Tony Soprano you’re not going to pay him his protection money and not expect him to send some wise guys over to bounce a baseball bat off your favorite skull. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/35 "2007-02-23T04:05:39Z")
But look, if 'Federal Reserve Notes" are not real money, they you can pretend to pay the illegal taxes in illegal “Notes” and nobody would be the wiser! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/36 "2007-02-23T04:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] I still can’t wrap my head around it, though. Some of the tax protester arguments at least make tortured crazy-sense if you squint hard enough, but arguing that the law is not the law just blows my mind. It’s just a willful, fundamental misunderstanding of what a “code” actually is. [/QUOTE] I feel for you. I’ve had to deal with the occasional correspondent who explains that when Britain passed the Statute of Westminster in 1931, it was abandoning sovereignty over Her Majesty’s Ship Canada, so under admiralty law each resident of said HMS Canada has the right to re-claim their sovereignty by way of salvage, and laws passed by the de facto Parliament and Legislatures do not apply without a wilful assumpsit by said sovereign citizens… I could go on, but I don’t want to explode your head. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/37 "2007-02-23T04:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] I still can’t wrap my head around it, though. Some of the tax protester arguments at least make tortured crazy-sense if you squint hard enough, but arguing that the law is not the law just blows my mind. It’s just a willful, fundamental misunderstanding of what a “code” actually is. [/QUOTE] Why should an argument that the law is not the law blow your mind necessarily? An argument that Superman is not Superman could be perfectly sanely and reasonably made: by Lois Lane, arguing “Clark Kent is not Superman!” Lane does not believe Kent is Superman, and Evaders do not believe Title 26 is The Law. Nothing particularly insane about that in and of itself. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/38 "2007-02-23T14:40:31Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Why should an argument that the law is not the law blow your mind necessarily? An argument that Superman is not Superman could be perfectly sanely and reasonably made: by Lois Lane, arguing “Clark Kent is not Superman!” Lane does not believe Kent is Superman, and Evaders do not believe Title 26 is The Law. Nothing particularly insane about that in and of itself. [/QUOTE] Perhaps, but when everybody around her says “actually, Lois, Clark Kent _is_ Superman,” and Clark Kent himself says “yeah, it’s true, I _am_ Superman,” and he demonstrates by removing and redonning his glasses several times, rearranging his forehead curl, and unbuttoning his shirt to reveal the big **S** logo on his chest, and she _still_ stamps her foot and refuses to accept it, it might be appropriate to begin questioning her sanity, or at least her sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/39 "2007-02-23T16:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Perhaps, but when everybody around her says “actually, Lois, Clark Kent _is_ Superman,” and Clark Kent himself says “yeah, it’s true, I _am_ Superman,” and he demonstrates by removing and redonning his glasses several times, rearranging his forehead curl, and unbuttoning his shirt to reveal the big **S** logo on his chest, and she _still_ stamps her foot and refuses to accept it, it might be appropriate to begin questioning her sanity, or at least her sincerity. [/QUOTE] Sure but that’s at least slightly different than what you said before. 😉 -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904/40 "2007-02-23T17:33:29Z")
so, rather than force their way in… Say they sieze the land he’s on for back taxes and build a mini-federal prison there. Just put a wall all the way around the house as close as they can safely get and put barbed wire at the top. Then station one corrections officer outside the wall. let him do his time right there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-ed-brown-have-legal-standing/390904.md?page=3)