# Does "Eenie Meenie Miney Moe" have racist origins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864 "2003-03-03T22:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/1 "2003-03-03T22:54:44Z")
I heard a story about 2 black sisters suing Southwest Airlines because of its seating policy in which a Southwest employee uses the phrase to determine who gets seating. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/2 "2003-03-03T23:08:43Z")
The original rhyme had “catch a nigger by the toe” instead of “catch a tiger by the toe.” The lawsuit is stupid and will likely not make it to trial. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/3 "2003-03-03T23:08:51Z")
One version of this poem, very popular in the South in decades past went: Eenie Meenie Miney Moe Catch a n\*gger by the toe… I learned it with “tiger” replacing the n-word and wasn’t even familiar with the racist version until much later in life. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/4 "2003-03-03T23:52:46Z")
Interestingly, while searching, I found this about the movie Pulp Fiction. > [@](#): > > When deciding who to “do” first, Zed uses the classic childhood “eenie, meenie, miney, moe” rhyme, substituting the word “nigger” in for “tiger.” A more sensible site suggests the orginial was “niger” and therefore not racist. The term itself became racist and changed to “nigger.” ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/5 "2003-03-04T00:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AcidKid \* > \*\*A more sensible site suggests the orginial was “niger” and therefore not racist. \*\* Not racist? Just what is a “niger”? I don’t think you can catch a river in West Africa by the toe. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/6 "2003-03-04T00:16:15Z")
When I was a little kid in the early 1960s, I learned it as “catch a tiger by the toe.” I never heard of the racist version until many years later. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/7 "2003-03-04T00:17:09Z")
I would point you to the penultimate post on the first page: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=162313&pagenumber=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=162313&pagenumber=1) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/8 "2003-03-04T00:18:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut \* > \*\*I heard a story about 2 black sisters suing Southwest Airlines because of its seating policy in which a Southwest employee uses the phrase to determine who gets seating. \*\* That’s not QUITE the version I heard. On Southwest Airlines, w low-fare, no-frills carrier, most seats are not pre-assigned. Your ticket gets you on a plane, but it doesn’t get you a specific seat. You don’t pick a seat until you get on board. Once people get on board, they’re supposed to pick a seat quickly and settle in. As I heard it, on one Southwest flight, a number of people (including two black women) seemed to be taking their sweet time getting seated. A flight attendant, trying to speed along the process in a cutesy way, got on the intercom and said “Eeeny meeny miney mo, pick a seat, we’ve gotta go.” Apparently, this silly rhyme had become popular among Southwest flight attendants- it was seen as a light-hearted way of telling people, “Come on, this isn’t rocket science! Just pick a seat, ANY seat!” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/9 "2003-03-04T00:47:21Z")
The thread linked to by **Mjollnir** gives a great overview. And within that thread is a [LINK](http://www.ksd.uscourts.gov/ors/opinions/012385-93.pdf) to the actual court filing which makes excellent reading if you want to do the work to read the original. Sometimes beneficial. The plaintiffs say that _they were the only people not seated when the 22 year-old flight attendant made the remark._. The flight attendant says she directed the remark to all the passengers. She implied that there were more than the two plaintiffs standing. She had used the phrase on previous flights. I can only guess the verdict will depend on whom the jury believes more. Trial starts tomorrow, March 4. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/10 "2003-03-04T01:01:09Z")
The first time I saw the racist version was on a Monty Python calendar (just a few years ago). It was obviously a joke, but I thought that Cleese and the gang simply made it up as a parody of southern songs, or something. Interesting to find out that that _was_ the original. Oh well, I’ve never really liked it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/11 "2003-03-04T01:46:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Not racist? Just what is a “niger”? I don’t think you can catch a river in West Africa by the toe. \*\* Niger refered to the people from the river Niger just as caucasian refers to people from the Caucasus mountains. The use and meaning of the two terms has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/12 "2003-03-04T02:08:42Z")
Trying to avoid a debate, here is part of the etymology of the word [niger](http://adcenter.scripps.com/html.ng/site=BOU&size=120x90&sitesection=general&keyword=front&pagepos=4). niger, Latin for the color black. According to Kennedy’s research, it began as a neutral description and remained so in “dignified argumentation” of the 1700s. By the early 19th century, however, Hosea Easton, author of an 1837 treatise on black Americans, recognized it as “an opprobrious term, employed to impose contempt upon (blacks) as an inferior race.” Now back to the OP. When is the first use of the centuries old rhyme? Did it predate the change in the use of the term niger? If so then it’s first use was not racist. Anybody have any luck finding the origin of the rhyme? ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/13 "2003-03-04T05:38:54Z")
I grew up in the heart of Racistville, USA. You can guess which version I was exposed to. When I first heard the “tiger” version (when I was in my twenties, IIRC!) I nearly cracked up thinking that it had only been recently cleaned up by the PC Police. Little did I know that the tiger version was as old or older than the racist one. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/14 "2003-03-04T06:28:29Z")
**AcidKid**. In the other thread, **Steve Primo** supplied that the original version of "eenie, meenie, …/tiger appears in the US in 1855. The eenie/nigger version appears first in print in England in 1923, in KIpling’s _Land and Sea Tales_. That’s not to say that the “nigger” version wasn’t first used in the US. It just doesn’t appear in print earlier than 1923. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/15 "2003-03-04T07:04:07Z")
**samclem** , Does the Kipling version use the word niger or nigger? Who wrote the American version? Were other variations of the rhyme in use prior to that time frame? Since the earliest version uses the word tiger and considering the time frame, barring other evidence, I would have to conclude that it was orginially racist. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/16 "2003-03-04T07:14:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*When I was a little kid in the early 1960s, I learned it as “catch a tiger by the toe.” I never heard of the racist version until many years later. \*\* I grew up in the 60’s too, but it was just the opposite. The first time I heard someone use “tiger” I told them they were saying it wrong. (hey, I was just a kid. what did I know?:smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/17 "2003-03-05T06:15:25Z")
By 1901, when Kipling wrote **Kim** , one of his best works, the word _nigger_ was used repeatedly. Where he got it I haven’t explored. 'Twern’t the river. My source on the US use is muddy in my mind. I’ll try to clarify it the next day or so if I get time. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/18 "2003-03-05T06:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*By 1901, when Kipling wrote **Kim** , one of his best works, the word _nigger_ was used repeatedly. Where he got it I haven’t explored. 'Twern’t the river. \*\* The British used it for any dark-skinned person, including those from India. In that sense, the OED has examples going back to 1857. America did not invent the word. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/19 "2003-03-05T06:40:49Z")
The US use of the word to describe a dark-skinned person predates the 1857 OED cite. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864/20 "2003-03-05T06:49:37Z")
When I said “that use”, I was referring to it being used by English writers and speakers for dark-skinned people from India. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-eenie-meenie-miney-moe-have-racist-origins/158864.md?page=2)