# Does Europe have any recognized Indigenous groups? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388 "2013-12-03T17:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/21 "2013-12-04T05:21:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Then excuse me, but you just earned a vigorous smack with a soft object on account of using Basque as opposite to French and Spaniard. That’s called “buying the re-definition” in polite terms. I know you didn’t mean to buy such sick cows, please don’t! I wot ? I bought cows ? Where do you expect me to put them ?! I think there could be some mistranslation going on my part - in French we say “le pays Basque” to refer to the geographical area (which includes both the French bit and the Spanish bit). Even if it’s not its own country in the nation-state sense of the word “pays”, and regardless of where one stands on the whole autonomy issue. But it’s not specific to the Basque cultural identity : “Pays” in that sense just means “area”, much like there’s a pays Limousin around the town of Limoges for instance. Even though there’s no Limousin ethnic group, cultural identity beyond \*more \*great food, or a unique language (even if they do talk funny :)). Hence, my usage of “Basque country”. Is that the bad re-definition you’re talking about ? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/22 "2013-12-04T06:28:56Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Ireland does have certain tax concessions and other favourable administrative arrangements for designated districts in which the dominant language is (or is supposed to be) Irish rather than English. The policy is to support the Irish language and associated culture, which is of course indigenous to Ireland. But there is no ethnic/racial element to any of these arrangement; they are all defined geographically. Travellers seem a closer fit in some ways, although they’re presumably no more indigenous to Ireland than settled people are. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/23 "2013-12-04T06:55:32Z")
_Technically_, the native Greenlanders ([Kalaallit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaallit)) are European, and they’re pretty damn indigenous. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/24 "2013-12-04T07:00:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Is that the bad re-definition you’re talking about ? No, the one under which Basque is incompatible with any currently-standing nationality as it requires being from the Basque country, a Basque-speaker and a nationalist. The same people who came up with it would have used the expression “their French and Spanish neighbors” in an exclusive sense: to them, Frenchmen and Spaniards either live outside the Basque country or are called maketos. It may be a matter of coincidental bad phrasing, but I wouldn’t have found it irritating at all if you hadn’t specified “their French and Spanish neighbors”: rather than specific as you meant it to be, to someone who went from being Basque _and_ Navarrese to thirty years of being told that was impossible it sounds exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/25 "2013-12-04T07:43:58Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > The [myriad indigenous peoples of the former Soviet Union,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Book_of_the_Peoples_of_the_Russian_Empire) notably in the North Caucasus and Siberia. Siberia is not in Europe. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, sure, go back far enough and humans are “indigenous” only in the Rift Valley of Africa. If you consider relative arrival, Britain’s Celts probably are “more” indigenous than its Normans. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Would you care to explain this? The Welsh and [Insular] Celtic peoples generally are, in fact, a good deal more “native” to Great Britain, in that their culture\* was found on the islands from the first historical records available. They certainly predate the earliest historical records of most native North American groups, and they certainly predate the arrival of the English, thus “more native.” > > Unless you mean that English culture, as distinct from Continental Saxon etc., evolved on the island of Britain, as did Celtic cultures, and thus they’re equally native to the place, just with different time depths. That’s a valid point of view but its logic would make generic Americans and Cherokees equally native to the USA. > > Or unless you mean everyone migrated from somewhere else, in which case again, your only argument is a difference in time depth. How long does one have to be in a place to be “native”? The Welsh have been in Wales for over 2000 years; other than “on the continent,” how many North American groups can demonstrate that kind of geographic continuity? And of course, every culture that exists has some sort of continuity with the one that came before it. > > This is a long way of saying I call racism. Not you, personally, but general usage—there exists some weird idea that you can’t be white and native (or “modern” and native) at the same time, despite clear evidence to the contrary. > > - (technically, their direct antecedent culture, since culture changes over time) The Celts were not the first human inhabitants British Isles. They were invaders in their time, just like the Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, etc. were later. Just like Europeans wer in North America, come to that. Heck, the Celts were probably not even the first invaders of Britain. The first _Homo Sapiens_, the Cro-Magnons, were here about 33,000 years ago. The Celts did not arrive until somewhere around the 6th century BC. On standard accounts, the Beaker People arrived and took over during the bronze age, some time in the third millenium BC (although [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland#Bronze_Age) says it is now disputed whether this really was an invasion, as opposed to technological developments among already indigenous people), to be followed by the Celts in the iron age, but there were probably many waves of culturally distinct new peoples who arrived between the first Cro-Magnons and the Beaker People. [Prehistoric settlement of the British Isles.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_settlement_of_the_British_Isles) I have some reason to believe that I myself am descended from, and display some of the physical traits of, the original paleolithic Cro-Magnon inhabitants of Britain. Back in the 1960s or ‘70s, one of the British quality Sunday papers (either the _Sunday Times_ or _The Observer_) ran a feature in its colour supplement about the different (white) peoples of the Britain, who had arrived at different times in history or prehistory (Beaker People, Celts, Picts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, and several more I can’t remember). In addition, for each such group, the article had a photo of a (then) present day British person who allegedly had a physical appearance typical of that associated with each of these “races”. There was also a map showing which of these races was still predominant in different areas of the country. The smallest region on the map was in the valleys of South Wales, where, so it said, there were still people who retained the look typical of the original “old stone age” inhabitants of Britain. There was a photo of one of the men from this region. He looked remarkably like my father. My father, and his ancestors, came from South Wales. I, as many people who knew him have remarked, look remarkably like my father did at my age. (Most notably, he, and I, and the man in the photo, have similarly and quite distinctively shaped heads.) I know it is not very scientific, and probably based on archeology of which is now partly discredited, but I like to believe it. I am a true Briton. My people have been here longer than anyone else. The rest of you fucking immigrants can sod off back to where you came from! :mad: (And if you won’t, I want the protections and privileges due to me as a member of the only truly indigenous British minority.🆒) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/26 "2013-12-04T13:16:13Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No, the one under which Basque is incompatible with any currently-standing nationality as it requires being from the Basque country, a Basque-speaker and a nationalist. The same people who came up with it would have used the expression “their French and Spanish neighbors” in an exclusive sense: to them, Frenchmen and Spaniards either live outside the Basque country or are called maketos. It may be a matter of coincidental bad phrasing, but I wouldn’t have found it irritating at all if you hadn’t specified “their French and Spanish neighbors”: rather than specific as you meant it to be, to someone who went from being Basque _and_ Navarrese to thirty years of being told that was impossible it sounds exclusive. Oh, that ! Well, as I said, I had a hiccup in the old noodle and the “Basque country” and “Andorra” brain folders merged for a moment. Including autonomous nation state and tax haven status, hence the neighbours visiting part. I assure you, I’m no Basque separatist hardliner or anything of the sort 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/27 "2013-12-04T14:20:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Technically_, the native Greenlanders ([Kalaallit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaallit)) are European, and they’re pretty damn indigenous. You’re saying Greenland is in Europe? :dubious: Because it is"part of" Denmark? Does that make French Guiana in Europe too? It’s a bigger continent than I thought! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/28 "2013-12-04T14:30:08Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, sure, go back far enough and humans are “indigenous” only in the Rift Valley of Africa. If you consider relative arrival, Britain’s Celts probably are “more” indigenous than its Normans. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Would you care to explain this? The Welsh and [Insular] Celtic peoples generally are, in fact, a good deal more “native” to Great Britain, in that their culture\* was found on the islands from the first historical records available. They certainly predate the earliest historical records of most native North American groups, and they certainly predate the arrival of the English, thus “more native.” In addition to the first part of what njtt said - the Celts weren’t the first ones in Britain - there really _aren’t_ any more Celtic people. Ever group to invade Britain has interbred with every other. By way of comparison, most native populations are genetically and culturally distinct from the majority wherever they are. > [@njtt](#): > > You’re saying Greenland is in Europe? :dubious: Well, it’s not part of North America, and it’s not a continent. Where else would you put it? ETA: On further review, some authorities say it _is_ part of North America. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/29 "2013-12-04T14:39:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: On further review, some authorities say it _is_ part of North America. But culturally it is part of Europe as are Iceland and the Faroe Islands. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/30 "2013-12-04T14:41:33Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh, that ! Well, as I said, I had a hiccup in the old noodle and the “Basque country” and “Andorra” brain folders merged for a moment. Including autonomous nation state and tax haven status, hence the neighbours visiting part. I assure you, I’m no Basque separatist hardliner or anything of the sort 🙂 Oh I know you’re not :). And if you were no problem, just don’t want to have confusion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/31 "2013-12-04T14:50:25Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > You’re saying Greenland is in Europe? I _did_ say technically…they were even in the EEC for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/32 "2013-12-04T14:58:16Z")
Strictly speaking, Greenland was never _in_ the EEC, or at least wasn’t a member state. It was “in” as a subdivision of Denmark at the time. It’s still a political subdivision of Denmark, of course, but now it’s largely autonomous. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/33 "2013-12-04T15:21:49Z")
_“I’m from the third world - Yorkshire…”_ - Ronnie Barker, _ **The Two Ronnies** _ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/34 "2013-12-04T15:54:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Strictly speaking, Greenland was never _in_ the EEC, or at least wasn’t a member state. It was “in” as a subdivision of Denmark at the time. It’s still a political subdivision of Denmark, of course, but now it’s largely autonomous. It was “in” independently-enough to be able to get out by itself, when the rest of Denmark still belonged. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/35 "2013-12-04T16:31:13Z")
For those saying the Celts weren’t the first people in Britain (which I don’t dispute): doesn’t the argue against ANY group being indigenous? The Navajo, for example, are certain NOT indigenous by this definition, and most of North America has a tenuous claim. The first people to pass through Oregon may well have gone on to Uruguay. Who knows? What we DO know is that genetic continuity is not cultural continuity. The English are genetic descendants of the pre-Roman peoples of Britain, so in that sense, yeah, but then, so am I and most of North America. Could somebody please just define what it means to be Indigenous? Then you could apply the same test to any group and see if it qualifies. I’m having trouble seeing a logical argument that allows the Navajo but disallows the Welsh or the Basques. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/36 "2013-12-04T16:34:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It was “in” independently-enough to be able to get out by itself, when the rest of Denmark still belonged. That’s because it got home rule in 1983. Prior to that it had no choice about being in. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/37 "2013-12-04T17:15:55Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > You’re saying Greenland is in Europe? :dubious: > > Because it is"part of" Denmark? Does that make French Guiana in Europe too? It’s a bigger continent than I thought! Neither here nor there but French Guiana appears on the Euro notes alongside Europe. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/38 "2013-12-04T17:43:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, it’s not part of North America, and it’s not a continent. Where else would you put it? > > ETA: On further review, some authorities say it _is_ part of North America. What does “not part of” mean here? Not on the continental shelf? I don’t know if it is on the North American shelf or not (actually I’d be rather surprised if it isn’t), but it sure as hell isn’t on the European shelf. Either it is a continent unto itself (which I have never heard seriously suggested) or, like most islands, it “belongs” to the continent it is closest to, i.e., North America. There is a very good case for designating as part of North America, if there is any case for designating it as part of Europe it is a terrible one (see below). > [@Floater](#): > > But culturally it is part of Europe as are Iceland and the Faroe Islands. By that criterion, so are the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, most of South and Central America . . . . (Actually, most of those places are way more European than Greenland, given that about 88% of the population of Greenland are Inuit.) Europe is _waaaay_ bigger than I thought.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/39 "2013-12-04T18:11:29Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Could somebody please just define what it means to be Indigenous? Then you could apply the same test to any group and see if it qualifies. I’m having trouble seeing a logical argument that allows the Navajo but disallows the Welsh or the Basques. Indigenous means they were there before. But some people are more indigenous than others. Neanderthals come to mind for Europe, but AFAIK, they aren’t around any more to ask for special privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388/40 "2013-12-04T18:24:39Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Indigenous means they were there before. But some people are more indigenous than others. > > Neanderthals come to mind for Europe, but AFAIK, they aren’t around any more to ask for special privileges. Okay, but what do you mean by “they”? - Cultural group - Political group - Genetic group - Some combination of the above? Also, is the last group to arrive the least indigenous, or the only one that’s not indigenous? It’s offensive to say it’s Neanderthals for Europe and living peoples for the rest of the world. Why should Europe be on a different standard? Why are they exceptional? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-europe-have-any-recognized-indigenous-groups/675388.md?page=3)