# does everything include nothing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 1999, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702 "1999-07-12T10:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 1999, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/1 "1999-07-12T10:42:00Z")
dont really know if this is a debate or not, but i have always liked this q. people tend to start thinking on a much grander scale than normal. anyhows, we all agree that nothing is…well nothing. and if it isnt anything it doesnt exist does it? still we have a word for it. well, the opposite of nothing is everything, which is…everything(ok this is getting annoying :)) but does that everything include the meaning we put behind the word nothing, and if so how can that be! another thing, zero, 0 or the number nothing, its all the same. its nothing, still an awful lots of huge numbers would look awfully silly without it. this i see as a proof nothing is included in everything. so from my point of view on with the question, where in this everything we know we are living in is that nothing? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 1999, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/2 "1999-07-12T13:34:00Z")
This is a perfect example of why you can’t use language to discuss mathematical terms. By the way, the opposite of nothing is something, not everything. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 1999, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/3 "1999-07-12T14:28:00Z")
I have in front of me a galley copy of a book due out in October, called _THe Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero_, by Robert Kaplan. I’ve only read the first chapter so far, so I can’t even really tell you much, except that early numbering systems, before somebody (not nobody) discovered “zero.” But if you can wait 'til October, you might get your question answered. 🙂 * * * “A woman came up to me and said ‘I’d like to poison your mind with wrong ideas that appeal to you though I am not unkind’” – They Might Be Giants, “Whistling in the Dark” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 1999, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/4 "1999-07-12T14:59:00Z")
I have nothing to say on this subject… Now that’s something! * * * Brian O’Neill CMC International Records [www.cmcinternational.com](http://www.cmcinternational.com) ICQ 35294890 AIM Scrabble1 Yahoo Messenger Brian\_ONeill ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 1999, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/5 "1999-07-12T21:55:00Z")
Nothing has no opposite. ‘Nothing’ does not exist anyway, it’s just an abstract idea. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 1999, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/6 "1999-07-13T04:30:00Z")
Yes everything includes nothing. I’ll demonstrate… First, get everything and put it somewhere, say your garage. No start removing things one by one, any item that isn’t a nothing. When you’re done, what’s left? Nothing! That nothing must have been put there when you put everything in. QED 😛 * * * Carpe hoc! (The Artist formerly known as pathunt) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 1999, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/7 "1999-07-13T12:51:00Z")
mrknowitall: so you are saying that in your garage you have nothing?, there is nothing in your garage even after you put everything in it? i wasnt refering to any grammar thingy when i said nothing was the opposide of everything, i was refering to a saying in my country which can be translated so: everything or nothing? commonly used in betting…all or nothing i belive you say it, but using the word everything leads me to my question. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 1999, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/8 "1999-07-14T05:30:00Z")
“All or nothing” in betting means that, if you choose to make a bet, you must stake all the money you’ve won up to that point. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 1999, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/9 "1999-07-13T19:47:00Z")
Guy, I think “all or nothing” refers to the outcome… If you win, you take it ALL home with you, if you lose, you take NOTHING. As to the original question, its best expressed in set theory. “Nothing” is the empty set. As Guy pointed out, the opposite of “nothing” is “something”, not “everything”. “Something” is the set of at least one thing. “Everything” is the set of all things - AKA the universal set. “Zero”, by the way, is not “nothing”, it’s “something”, and that’s important… especially in very large and very small numbers, as you’ve pointed out. By definition, the universal set (everything) includes the empty set (nothing), as stated by MrKnowItAll. Incidentally, the universal set (everything) also includes the set of at least one thing (something). If you take the universal set and remove “everything”, you’re left with the empty set. Therefore, this is why we can use sentences like the following with mathematical impunity. “He used to be ‘something’, but then he lost ‘everything’, so now he’s ‘nothing’.” Make sense? [wink] MrKnowItAll writes: > [@](#): > > First, get everything and put it somewhere, say your garage. I take it you’ve seen my garage then? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 1999, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/10 "1999-07-14T08:36:00Z")
Part 1:“nothing” and “everything” are ideas. Ideas can’t be touched, measured, tasted, etc. They are outside tangeable reality. If the intangeable exists, then nothing does too. It must therefore be included in the idea of everything. If the intangeable does not exist, then neither does everything. It must therefore be included in the idea of nothing. But wait… nothing doesn’t exist either! It can’t include anything. Let’s try this again: If the intangeable does not exist, then neither does nothing. It can’t be included in everything, which is fine because everything doesn’t exist anyway. Part 2) Where is this everything? In your head, in the realm of majick, in God(s), it is all up to you to decide. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 1999, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/11 "1999-07-14T09:44:00Z")
yes…its always good to see that people can still think, you give me hope guys that the human race isnt done for yet. that zero thing was really based as a joke, while still putting a vague idea of what i was talking about into your heads. * * * it was a book i read (soul music, terry prachett) in reading the book you came to the conclusion that the world was build by music. at least sounds and stuff. well there was this boy who got his life prolonged by music, he had found this magical guitar and stuff. i guess the world was looking for a hobby or somthing like that. well anyhows that intriqued death, of course it did, the boy didnt die when he was supposed to. but well anyhows, when the world finally wanted to stop this, ending the boys life, death intervened (elvis like!) to save the boys life. the world said that there was nothing death could do. but death took up the guitar and played zero. simple and effective. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/12 "1999-07-15T00:51:00Z")
I was struck with this today. Yes, everything DOES contain nothing. Think of the universe. It contains stars, planets, moons, asteroids, quasars and the space between them, which is nothing! Also, you can take away from something and everything, but you can’t take away from nothing. You can have 3 bicycles in MrKnowItAll’s garage, but you can’t have (-3) bicycles. You can’t use matheatical quantities to describe abstractions like nothingness and somethingness. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/13 "1999-07-15T10:17:00Z")
thats why mathematically speaking, nothing = 0; ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/14 "1999-07-15T18:32:00Z")
So all you’re tellin’ me is that nothing is for real. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/15 "1999-07-15T19:51:00Z")
Nanobyte, not only that, but it’s nothing to get hung about. PLD “Strawberry Fields Forever!” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/16 "1999-07-15T21:10:00Z")
Mathematically, zero is _not_ “nothing”; the empty set {} is “nothing”. Zero is the number of elements contained in the empty set. If you have an empty box, that box contains nothing. The contents of that box are isomorphic to the contents of the empty set. How many apples are in the empty box? Zero. How many elements are in the empty set? Zero. Zero is the number you get when you count the number of things contained in nothing. I wonder if this will still make sense after my afternoon caffeine fix. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 1999, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/17 "1999-07-15T21:13:00Z")
Also note that {0}, the set containing zero, is different from {} the empty set. {0} contains one element. Further proof that zero is something! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 1999, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/18 "1999-07-16T06:15:00Z")
Well, I’m { \_\_/ } for nothing. / ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 1999, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/19 "1999-07-16T06:18:00Z")
Make that: Well, I’m { \_\_/ } for nothing. . . . . . . ./ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 1999, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702/20 "1999-07-16T06:20:00Z")
Third time’s a charm: Well, I’m { \_\_/ } for nothing. . . . . . . . . ./ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-everything-include-nothing/16702.md?page=2)