# Does fem/tomboy as a kid equal gay/lesbian as an adult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 24, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657 "2006-11-24T17:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/1 "2006-11-24T17:16:53Z")
I’ve read several articles online (including what Wikipedia has on the subject) and most of them assume a very strong connection between pre-pubertal contra-sex behavior and sexual orientation later. Now in the case of tomboyish girls (whom are more socially acceptable) I’m sure many of them end up going hetero, but how about feminish boys, whose behavior is less socially acceptable? Are many of them going to become hetero too despite the early signs (engage in more “feminine” activities perhaps while still being attracted to females) or will the vast majority become gay? [Note I dislike stereotyping but it was kind of hard to ask this question without sounding like I am, without putting in tons of qualifying statements and making the question twice as long. I apologise in advance if I offend anyone] ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/2 "2006-11-24T17:26:25Z")
Hmmm … what kind of behavior are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/3 "2006-11-24T17:44:59Z")
From what I’ve seen in comments here and in other reading, it’s apparently a marker of potentiality,with some degree of validity, but nothing like definite indication. There are numerous “masculine” gay men and “feminine” Lesbians, more than a few effeminate straight men, and literally tons of former-tomboy straight women. Speaking more generally, two things can be said of a stereotype: (1) It does not describe every person whom its terms appear to apply to; (2) if a “valid” stereotype, it does represent a generalization from valid observations. Generous Scotsmen, Jews with no head for business, calm unexcitable Irishmen and Frenchmen, etc. do in fact exist. (Whether the stereotypes are in fact valid in those nationality stereotypes I do not choose to have an idea.) The effeminate boy, the tomboy girl, are _more likely_ to display same-sex attraction than their non-stereotype counterparts. But they are not bound into that sexuality. **AHunter3** , who is nearly a one-man minority with his various characteristics, has mentioned several times being straight by orientation but fairly effeminate in youth and maturity. He came quickly to mind, but other examples should not be hard to come by. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/4 "2006-11-24T18:06:54Z")
My sister had more skinned knees and scraped elbows growing up than my brother and I put together. My brother is a major clothes horse and displays less masculine traits then the average straight man. I was quite a bit more femme acting as a kid. Of the three of us I’m the only gay one even though all of us had more traditionally opposite sex traits than the norm. My other brother is very much masculine trait oriented but seeing as he’s only 13, no idea if he’s gonna turn out straight or gay. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/5 "2006-11-24T19:23:53Z")
I think this is one of the common perception biases. You feel it is noteworthy when a child displays signs of a less common sexual orientation before puberty and when that actually turns out to be true you thing “Huh, did I see that coming or what?”. As a personal anecdote I’d say that knowing somebodies sexual orientation as an adult changes your perception of their childhood stories and photographs, but what correlates almost 100% with my personal experience is that women who were tomboys as children tend to have stronger sex drives and less hangups than those who weren’t, regardless of their sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/6 "2006-11-25T00:38:01Z")
From what I’ve read in a few studies none of them particularly good or unbiased. My take from them was boys that display feminine traits before puberty do have a much higher chance of being gay after puberty. A statistic I remember was fem boys had a 70 percent chance of becoming gay men. The same correlation was not found comparing masculine girls to lesbian I personally don’t know any straight men who were very effeminate as children. I know a number of gay men who were. There is always a good deal of debate as to what a feminine or masculine activity or trait for children is. I think most legitimate organizations stay away from that area of study and stick to things a bit more definable. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/7 "2006-11-25T12:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=John DiFool] I’ve read several articles online (including what Wikipedia has on the subject) and most of them assume a very strong connection between pre-pubertal contra-sex behavior and sexual orientation later. Now in the case of tomboyish girls (whom are more socially acceptable) I’m sure many of them end up going hetero, but how about feminish boys, whose behavior is less socially acceptable? Are many of them going to become hetero too despite the early signs (engage in more “feminine” activities perhaps while still being attracted to females) or will the vast majority become gay? [/QUOTE] The way you’ve worded your question (“become hetero”, “become gay”) presupposes that sexual orientation isn’t determined until puberty. However, I believe the general consensus is that sexual orientation is already determined by the time you’re born, and no amount of social conditioning afterwards is going to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Mame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Mame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mame)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/8 "2006-11-25T12:58:31Z")
There were 3 boys who lived next door to me when I was child. The youngest was JoJo. I can remember him wanting to play with the girls not the boys, him dressing in girl’s clothing, and him pushing his penis between his legs when he urinated, so he would look like a girl. I always assumed that JoJo would grow up gay. Or, after I knew such a thing existed, tranny. My father mentioned JoJo in passing one day a year or so ago. Turns out JoJo is now Jonothan. He is happily married with 5 kids. Yes, married to a woman. So much for my assumption. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/9 "2006-11-25T14:12:52Z")
According to [THIS](http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Parents%20Corner/preventing_homosexuality.htm) uber-Christian website, you can avoid raising homosexual children by “having a child play with members of _his_ (sic) own sex.” The whole site is a hoot, but I wouldn’t take it seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/10 "2006-11-25T16:57:24Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] According to [THIS](http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Parents%20Corner/preventing_homosexuality.htm) uber-Christian website, you can avoid raising homosexual children by “having a child play with members of _his_ (sic) own sex.” [/QUOTE] Because, of course, there’s nothing less homosexual than playing with members of your own sex. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/11 "2006-11-25T17:52:03Z")
Psychonaut, not determined at puberty but latent until then. And yes I have an acquaintance whose preteen boy is exhibiting such signs, but I always wondered and was curious what other Dopers’ experiences were like (as in Mame’s case). ---
**Author:** ![MrJackboots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MrJackboots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrJackboots)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/12 "2006-11-25T18:02:31Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Because, of course, there’s nothing less homosexual than playing with members of your own sex. 😉 [/QUOTE] Well, there’s the Dr. Dobson-approved preventative of [making a boy shower with his father so he can study another penis up close.](http://www.fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=2662) ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/13 "2006-11-25T18:29:20Z")
[QUOTE=psychonaut] The way you’ve worded your question (“become hetero”, “become gay”) presupposes that sexual orientation isn’t determined until puberty. However, I believe the general consensus is that sexual orientation is already determined by the time you’re born, and no amount of social conditioning afterwards is going to change it. [/QUOTE] As sexual orientation isn’t apparent till puberty I think it is a fair way to word the question. The general scientific concensus is sexual orientation may or may not be determined before birth but it is established before the age of 6. (Why 6 I have no idea). Social conditioning on children under 6 is unlikely to have any effect on the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/14 "2006-11-25T19:06:27Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] According to [THIS](http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Parents%20Corner/preventing_homosexuality.htm) uber-Christian website, you can avoid raising homosexual children by “having a child play with members of _his_ (sic) own sex.” The whole site is a hoot, but I wouldn’t take it seriously. [/QUOTE] Ah yes, It’s from the excellent book, _How to Rear Infants_ ::snicker:: ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/15 "2006-11-25T19:22:11Z")
How can you not love a site that has a section called “Spongebob and Sodomy”? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/16 "2006-11-26T10:28:45Z")
[QUOTE=boytyperanma] As sexual orientation isn’t apparent till puberty I think it is a fair way to word the question. The general scientific concensus is sexual orientation may or may not be determined before birth but it is established before the age of 6. (Why 6 I have no idea). Social conditioning on children under 6 is unlikely to have any effect on the outcome. [/QUOTE] I am not sure that sexual orientation is not apparent until puberty. Do you have a cite for that? Are you saying children are not capable of being sexually attracted to one, the other or both genders/sexes? Was I weird? I was physically attracted to girls at least 6-7 years before puberty really hit me if not more. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/17 "2006-11-26T18:51:11Z")
• If you’re a sissy male (i.e., not ‘masculine’ in temperament, etc) you may be no more likely to feel attraction / interest in other males than if you were more conventional in personality… but if you _do_ in fact have any such interest, well, chances are real good that everyone suspects it of you anyway, what do you have to lose by giving it a test drive? You may even have people telling you that heterosexuality can’t possibly be an option for you even if you _are_ attracted to females, because what female could possibly have any kind of sexual response to, umm, someone like _you_? • Reciprocally, if you are male and have attractions to other males, but don’t have a personality or behavioral predisposition much different from that of other guys in general, then just like all other guys, now and then comes a situation where you _could_ behave (dress, speak, make a choice, indicate a taste or interest, whatever) in a way that would be seen as “effeminate” or “sissified”… you’d _know_, just as guys in that situation in general would know, that doing so would make it more likely that someone’s going to think “Ewww, that’s so sissy, that’s so gay”. If you _are_ in fact attracted to guys, maybe your attitude is “Yeah, and…?” rather than “Ooooh, I better not do that, wouldn’t want people to think I’m a faggy queer”… so even without a personality / behavioral disposition, gay guys are probably more _free_ to exhibit behaviors that one gets called “gay” for displaying. • Be that as it may, there are majorly macho masculine butch gay fellows. They can be as contemptuous and nasty towards sissy guys as any straight guy. I believe **matt mcl** has called them out on the carpet a few times for that attitude. • There’s no public identity, no shared concept in folks’ minds for a male person who is sissy and het. If there were, you might find that there are more of us than you think, and it might turn out that once exposed to that we tend to be happy about who we are, and proud of it. (I definitely like who I am). Do note that the personality / behavioral spectrum that constitutes “sissy” doesn’t always lend itself well to bombastic self-referential, others-challenging identity-declaring behavior. I know I’d like to be _noticed_ and found to be _intriguing_, not to have to explain myself. Note also that the ‘heterosexual’ part of it may fly beneath your radar if your ability to discern that a male is hetersexual is tied up with conventional hetero male sexual behavior, which in turn is kind of all wrapped up in the personality / behavioral constellation of conventional dominant assertive show-offy masculine behavior, if you see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/18 "2006-11-26T20:03:04Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] • There’s no public identity, no shared concept in folks’ minds for a male person who is sissy and het. If there were, you might find that there are more of us than you think, and it might turn out that once exposed to that we tend to be happy about who we are, and proud of it. (I definitely like who I am). Do note that the personality / behavioral spectrum that constitutes “sissy” doesn’t always lend itself well to bombastic self-referential, others-challenging identity-declaring behavior. I know I’d like to be _noticed_ and found to be _intriguing_, not to have to explain myself. Note also that the ‘heterosexual’ part of it may fly beneath your radar if your ability to discern that a male is hetersexual is tied up with conventional hetero male sexual behavior, which in turn is kind of all wrapped up in the personality / behavioral constellation of conventional dominant assertive show-offy masculine behavior, if you see what I mean. [/QUOTE] I guess my question was ultimately concerning the above. I personally, while into many traditionally male pursuits (sports, computers, cars) also have definite feminish tendencies (tho many of those natch aren’t apparent from a casual interaction tho I’m not ashamed of any of it really). But I am also definitely hetero-gay sex has no interest for me and in fact I personally find it aesthetically displeasing. I AM attracted to tomboyish women, but not if they are extreme butch. I was just questioning the tendency to automatically equate “sissy=gay” which seems so prevalent (“Oh come on he HAS to be gay now right?”). For me it would have to be a relationship where both of us are psychologically androgynous (as well as in terms of interests and activities), but I get the feeling (from hard experience) that such matches (attractions) are rare for some odd reason. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/19 "2006-11-27T00:04:10Z")
You might be really interested in my article [Same Closet, Different Door: A Heterosexual Sissy’s Coming-out Party](http://home.earthlink.net/~ahunter/Same_Closet_Diff_Door/hpsissy.html)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657/20 "2006-11-27T01:34:43Z")
Very thought provoking AH. It helps to to shed some light on a short relationship I had 8 years ago (indeed she was very androgynous and appeared at first at least to have forsaken all those “roles” you discuss), which your line “…there are fewer men like him than there are women like her, and they both know it. Furthermore, most strong women are not used to playing with men who are their emotional equals in intimate relationships. All in all, it tends to be rather risky and frightening for both, with lots of vulnerability and tenderness and sparks jumping around all over the place.” Basically it got very intense very quickly, and I guess she couldn’t deal with, as you said, someone who was an “emotional equal” (she even remarked that “Heh I am dating myself!”, laughing so she wouldn’t cry I guess). I guess I refuse to toss my integrity out the window just for the sake of “scoring” (something I’m not interested in in the first place. IAE I appreciate your essay. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fem-tomboy-as-a-kid-equal-gay-lesbian-as-an-adult/381657.md?page=2)