# Does fencing help in self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913 "2010-09-24T18:31:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/21 "2010-09-24T20:22:00Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You don’t consider smallsword duels et al of the 1700’s and 1800’s to be a real martial art? Angelo, for example, wasn’t just teaching bored gentlemen who wanted a workout. And what of St. Georges? He killed more than his share of men fencing. From the OP, > [@Love Rhombus](#): > > Would a trained (swordless) fencer have any advantages in a fight over an average fit person? (underline mine) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/22 "2010-09-24T20:23:59Z")
I sparred a fencer once. He was very very effective at getting past my guard and landing punches with an odd lunge. He was completely ineffective (at that time) of landing anything that was punishing in any way, but he could strike coup quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/23 "2010-09-24T20:26:01Z")
Wrong choice of words. Certainly it was still a martial art. And at the highest levels of skill, quite deadly, but it wasn’t the well-rounded approach to hand to hand combatives that it was in previous centuries. And I find that important given the OP’s premise. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/24 "2010-09-24T20:26:35Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > You don’t consider smallsword duels et al of the 1700’s and 1800’s to be a real martial art? Angelo, for example, wasn’t just teaching bored gentlemen who wanted a workout. And what of St. Georges? He killed more than his share of men fencing. > > From the OP, > > > [@Love Rhombus](#): > > > > Would a trained (swordless) fencer have any advantages in a fight over an average fit person? > > (underline mine) You may be under a mistaken impression that my third post was addressing the OP. I’m quoting Kinthalis, who asserted: > [@](#): > > Again, you need to go back to the Renaissance/Medieval period before “fencing” becomes a true martial art. Gun powder changed a lot in the west, and skill in hand to hand combat just wasn’t as important for self-defense as owning a gun. This was indicated by the fact that…well, I quoted Kinthalis. Where’s the beef? ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/25 "2010-09-24T20:41:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > [@PlainJain](#): > > > > From the OP, > > > > (underline mine) > > You may be under a mistaken impression that my third post was addressing the OP. I’m quoting Kinthalis, who asserted: > > > [@](#): > > > > Again, you need to go back to the Renaissance/Medieval period before “fencing” becomes a true martial art. Gun powder changed a lot in the west, and skill in hand to hand combat just wasn’t as important for self-defense as owning a gun. > > This was indicated by the fact that…well, I quoted Kinthalis. > > Where’s the beef? I made the assumption that you were quoting **Kinthalis** in relation to the OP. I was wrong, no beef. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/26 "2010-09-24T20:42:58Z")
A lot of people have pointed out some of the help that Fencing has provided them - in terms of balance, coordination, strength, stamina, etc - _but_, we have to look at the OP: > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Would a trained (swordless) fencer have any advantages in a fight over an **average fit person**? (bolding mine) The average fit person has to do _something_ to get/stay fit - for most people, that’s some kind of sport, like tennis or basketball or something. Or maybe they just run or bike or something. The point is, they engage in some kind of activity. And those activities are likely to be of use in a fight - whether the footwork learned from tennis, or the hand-eye coordination of baseball, or the stamina of running; or whatever. But, someone who had trained in, say, boxing - has the advantage of not only gaining physical aptitude, but also in gaining skills that are uniquely applicable to hand to hand combat. Someone who has trained boxing 10 hours/week for 5 years will have a very distinct advantage in a fight over somene who has trained in basketball for 10 hours/week for 5 years (assuming they are roughly equal in physical properties such as height, weight, age, etc.). So, I think the OP is best interpretted to be asking whether fencing confers additional benefits over more non-combat oriented activities (like boxing does) or if it’s benefits are similar to those of the types of activities that an “average fit person” would engage in. Not being a fencer, I can’t say - but I thought a closer analysis of the question was appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/27 "2010-09-24T20:44:14Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > > [@pravnik](#): > > > > JKD didn’t die with Bruce - I’ve trained with some JKD guys and they can bang full contact, and hard. Fencing was only a small portion of what Bruce put into the mix with JKD > > I agree with most of your points. I would contend though that modern KJD fighters do not use any fencing techniques. They would not agree. Read Teri Tom’s book “The Straight Lead: the Core of Bruce Lee’s Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do” and you’ll see a good bit of discussion on Aldo Nadi’s influence on JKD. > [@PlainJain](#): > > Again I agree but that’s not a fair parse of what I said. He didn’t challenge himself against the other top discipline fighters of his day. I doubt that he could have beaten the top Muay Thai fighters of his day. He didn’t fight them so we will never know, but we are a bit far afield from the OP which is would fencing help in a fight. The fact that Lee considered integrated fencing into KJD does not make the case that it would. He competed and won as a boxer, and is regarded by his contemporaries to have had the ability to have been a highly ranked lightweight or junior welterweight pro had he chosen to go that route. It’s again unfair to compare him to Muay Thai fighters of the day when Muay Thai was virtually unheard of outside of Thailand. As to making the case that “fencing would help an otherwise untrained individual in a fight because Bruce Lee used it,” I never made the claim that it would or wouldn’t. I have no personal experience with fencing and no opinion in that regard, which is why I said: > [@pravnik](#): > > …it’s not quite the same question but worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/28 "2010-09-24T20:45:16Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > [QUOTE=TriPolar] > Fencing may give better tuned reflexes and eye-hand coordination, doesn’t necessarily do anything for stamina unless you’re training in dramatic sword fighting. Train for 2 to 3 hours straight at a time in footwork drills and bladework, and hell yes your stamina increases. “Do advance-advance-lunge 100 times, then retreat-parry quarte-retreat-parry prime-riposte 200 times…” yeah, it adds up. When you can wring out your fencing jacket after every session, you’re getting a workout. It’s by no means like boxing or something, but it’s a serious workout. [/QUOTE] I’m sure it is. I meant to compare it to the advantageous level of stamina that a marathoner might have. But anyone dedicated to training in any physical activity should have a high level stamina. Conversely, a marathoner might not have their eye-hand coordination enhanced from their own sport. And dramatic fencing would include some punching, kicking, and acrobatics, which would have many advantages. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/29 "2010-09-24T20:48:09Z")
I guess the question is “what is a fit person?” Given that somewhere like 2/3 of all American adults are overweight or obese, and who knows how many of the remaining shrinking minority are medically able to be fit from other factors, I was assuming “fit” meant “generally capable of athletic effort without precluding medical factors”, not that they were currently in an athletic training program. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/30 "2010-09-24T20:52:22Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I guess the question is “what is a fit person?” Given that somewhere like 2/3 of all American adults are overweight or obese, and who knows how many of the remaining shrinking minority are medically able to be fit from other factors, I was assuming “fit” meant “generally capable of athletic effort without precluding medical factors”, not that they were currently in an athletic training program. Undefined questions are notoriously tricky to answer 🙂 Taken at face value, I thought that it was best to consider that whatever amount of time the fencer spent spent fencing, the non-fencer spent doing something else physical, so that we were comparing the value of the fencing itself, rather than comparing the amount of time spent exercising. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/31 "2010-09-24T20:53:08Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I guess the question is “what is a fit person?” Given that somewhere like 2/3 of all American adults are overweight or obese, and who knows how many of the remaining shrinking minority are medically able to be fit from other factors, I was assuming “fit” meant “generally capable of athletic effort without precluding medical factors”, not that they were currently in an athletic training program. DSeid tried to answer that question [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=577688&highlight=physical+fitness) ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/32 "2010-09-24T20:54:22Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > They would not agree. Read Teri Tom’s book “The Straight Lead: the Core of Bruce Lee’s Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do” and you’ll see a good bit of discussion on Aldo Nadi’s influence on JKD. My only knowledge of JKD was watching demonstrations. In those I didn’t see the fencing influence but I concede to your greater knowledge. > [@](#): > > It’s again unfair to compare him to Muay Thai fighters of the day when Muay Thai was virtually unheard of outside of Thailand. I disagree but am happy to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/33 "2010-09-24T20:58:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > > > I guess the question is “what is a fit person?” Given that somewhere like 2/3 of all American adults are overweight or obese, and who knows how many of the remaining shrinking minority are medically able to be fit from other factors, I was assuming “fit” meant “generally capable of athletic effort without precluding medical factors”, not that they were currently in an athletic training program. > > DSeid tried to answer that question [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=577688&highlight=physical+fitness) Sure…but while there may be various definitions, whatever he may or may not say may not reflect what the OP meant in this circumstance. We’re sort of arguing an unanswerable question here. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/34 "2010-09-24T20:59:21Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > I disagree but am happy to agree to disagree. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/35 "2010-09-24T21:09:51Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Sure…but while there may be various definitions, whatever he may or may not say may not reflect what the OP meant in this circumstance. We’re sort of arguing an unanswerable question here. Well yes, but comparisons based on definable standards of fitness would be useful to answering the question whatever was originally meant. Whether it’s just the average fitness level of people, which might be pretty low for some groups, or the average dedicated athelete, it points out the specific advantages fencers gain from their training, aside from manipulation of a sword. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/36 "2010-09-24T23:18:28Z")
The old adage, “Train like you fight, as you will fight like you train,” applies here. As **PlainJane** notes, most real-world fights start out as sucker punches or windmilling and rapidly end up as clumsy ground fighting, none of which is covered by the psychomotor skills used in the formalized sport of fencing. In addition, while fenders are taught to take advantage of balance and footing, they’re also taught not to attack until released by the referee, whereas most streetfighters succeed not by being technically better but by taking the all-screaming, all-flailing initiative and not giving the defender time to collect himself, fall into a horse stance, or otherwise cleanly execute technique. Frankly, most streetfighters have two or three “techniques” that work for them the vast majority of the time, and unless the defender is both trained against that type of attack and can keep the presence of mind to respond, the attacker has a huge advantage. The dexterity and fitness that comes from fencing, sparing, et cetera is nice but generally not very definitive in a real fight that doesn’t last long enough to test endurance or establish “battle rythym”. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/37 "2010-09-24T23:34:49Z")
There’s the other side of this question. What is a fight? A brawl between inept, angry participants, a street fight between people with some experience in street fights, a fist fight between some skilled, honorable opponents? There are a lot of possible combinations to consider for what a fit person would be, and what kind of fight it is. And as \*\*Stranger On A Train \*\*points out above, you don’t have to be a great athlete to get the drop on the other guy, he just has to be unprepared. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/38 "2010-09-24T23:40:56Z")
Heh, a fistfight between skilled honorable opponents. Which would be your typical MMA fight. Which pretty much degrades into wrestling for chokes, bars, and the opportunity to just hold your opponent and punch them in a vulnerable-ish spot until they give in or pass out. Everything else is pretty much choreography. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/39 "2010-09-25T00:48:39Z")
I have to agree with the last few posts. I’m a former wrestler (about 10 years’ worth of it). MMA/UFC fans will generally agree that those with a wrestling background tend to have the advantage - the ground game is where the brawl is won. I haven’t been in a large number of non-sporting fights; when I have, I always took the battle to my home ground - the ground. Go ahead and try to knock my teeth down my throat while I’m behind you, have your legs restrained, and you can’t breath worth a damn. It’s served me well (I’m a smallish guy, by most standards - except for my HUGE… forehead 😃 ) Bottom line, I think, is that different fighting styles are for different purposes. The Shaolin monks had their reasons for learning to fight, as did the Greeks, as do the US Marines and similar. It’s specialization. The greatest advantage to be found in a street brawl is to not be the drunk/high person. Or, of course, have a weapon. ETA: I love when someone tries to headlock me - I’ve got them in a headlock, too, and hip control reverses the situation. And getting lunged at (with arms flailing) is a wrestler’s dream. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913/40 "2010-09-25T01:15:56Z")
Yeah, basically every street fight I’ve seen has been won by the guy who: a) knocked the other guy out before he knew he was in a fight; or b) ended up on top of the other guy, pounding his face in b usually occurs one of the following ways: b1) like a) above, but the first punch didn’t quite knock him out b2) guys try to punch each other, but just end up falling down b3) there is actually a real fight, and one guy gets in a good enough shot to stagger the other guy and then bring him down b4) one of the guys is a wrestler, and the other guy is screwed [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-fencing-help-in-self-defense/554913.md?page=3)