# Does football(soccer) breed more fan violence than other sports, and if so, why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 1, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331 "2019-05-01T16:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/21 "2019-05-05T22:57:21Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The violence stems from enduring the crushing boredom of watching grown men in tiny shorts run around for 1000 minutes without accomplishing a damn thing besides throwing themselves to the ground in a grotesque pantomime of agony now and again. It’s enough to make men and women of goodwill seethe with an unquenchable rage. 😛 Well yeah, except there are other major sports with long boring sequences. Come to think of it, those other sports at least have plenty of breaks to go get beer, offload beer etc. Could soccer’s paucity of breaks contribute to pent-up rage? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/22 "2019-05-06T00:58:15Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Hmmmm really? You dead sure, then, that the teams you mentioned have anywhere near the same socio-economic distinctions as that between Boca and Plate, especially when City have actually been associated with nouveau riche ownership? I’ve certainly never seen such a division highlighted in the media for those teams the way I have for BJ/RP, to be sure. No, I know nothing at all about Argentinian soccer. And yet I feel entirely confident in stating that Boca’s OWNERS aren’t working class, so I don’t know why you’d bring that up. It’s not something that’s necessarily talked about in the media a whole lot, but I guarantee that everyone in Chicago and New York, whether they follow the sport or not,knows which of their baseball teams is for the posh crowd and which is the working man’s team. Granted that those reputations correspond only very vaguely to the reality, which is that both teams draw support from all classes. If there really is a class difference between Boca and RJ fans, that could certainly explain the ferocity of the rivalry. But the fact that Boca can afford to be competitive on the field tells me they must have some wealthy supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/23 "2019-05-06T06:55:12Z")
…and all those points are totally well taken; I should have been clearer earlier in saying that BR/RP is basically touted a bit more as a rick man’s/poor man’s clash than the vast majority of sports franchise rivalries are (or “derbies”, whatever the sport might be). A relief to see Chelsea secure a Champions League position for next year, and then this week they have a Europa semi against Frankfurt. Nice (but not earth-shattering) to secure third epl spot if the Blues can win their final match in Leicester. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/24 "2019-05-06T08:36:16Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Nonsense. The religious element of the Old Firm rivalry is fairly unique, but I think in almost any situation where you have two teams in the same city, one will be stereotyped as the “working class” team (White Sox, Jets, Mets, Man City) and one as the rich folks team (Cubs, Giants, Yankees, Man United). In Barcelona that was the original division, but since Barça rebranded itself as the independentist club it’s been one of “_indepes_” vs “_españoles_”. Note that “the other team” actually has Español or Espanyol in the name (the spelling varies b/w Spanish and Catalan, the pronunciation is different only for specific dialects of Catalan). In Seville the division between Betis and Seville corresponds to the traditional division between both sides of the river: upon meeting for the first time, people from Seville quickly ask each other any of multiple questions which boil down to “Seville or Triana”. There are economic, social and cultural differences between Left Side and Right Side, Triana and Seville. It doesn’t quite get to be between Roma and Payo (non-Roma) because neither do the two areas themselves. The same division repeats in anything you care to name, to the extent of people being “of the Macarena” (the image of Our Lady of Hope who presides the Cathedral of Seville) or “of the Trianera” (the image of Our Lady of Hope who presides the Hermit of Triana). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/25 "2019-05-06T08:46:21Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > No, I know nothing at all about Argentinian soccer. And yet I feel entirely confident in stating that Boca’s OWNERS aren’t working class You seem to be assuming ownership similar to that of American sports teams. I can’t find information about Boca specifically in a quick search, but a lot of soccer clubs are owned by their supporters: that’s where the “association” comes from. Being a _socio_ gives you a season’s ticket, makes you a voting shareholder, etc. Assuming that kind of structure and while not all of Boca’s _socios_ will be working class (their former chairmen include among others the current President of Argentina), it’s perfectly possible that the majority are. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/26 "2019-05-06T17:39:29Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You seem to be assuming ownership similar to that of American sports teams. I can’t find information about Boca specifically in a quick search, but a lot of soccer clubs are owned by their supporters: that’s where the “association” comes from. Being a _socio_ gives you a season’s ticket, makes you a voting shareholder, etc. > Assuming that kind of structure and while not all of Boca’s _socios_ will be working class (their former chairmen include among others the current President of Argentina), it’s perfectly possible that the majority are. The Green Bay Packers of the NFL are a bit like that. They’re unique among major US professional sports teams. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/27 "2019-05-07T07:57:14Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > The more brutal the sport, the more the fans work out their aggressive tendencies while watching it. . . Baseball is the least violent of the four major professional sports in the U.S., and it doesn’t have a problem with fan violence. Tennis is a big sport and has almost zero problems with fan violence. Alcohol contributes to violence. There are more fights when it’s easy for fans to get drunk and stay drunk. Fights used to be more common at baseball games, but then they took measures to keep people from getting sloshed, such as not selling beer in the stands, limiting the number of drinks one can buy at a time, and disallowing people from bringing in cans and bottles. It helped. There are fewer fights than there used to be at MLB games. Rivalry also contributes to violence. Back when the Giants played at Candlestick Park, there were always fights in the stands when they played the Dodgers. General social mores probably also have something to do with it. England had soccer hooligans when the country had a lot of disaffected, angry young men. Those days are gone, and soccer hooliganism is gone with them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/28 "2019-05-07T14:20:54Z")
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of soccer teams derived from old club teams that were local to a specific part of a city. This is especially true in the UK, where there’s a very developed and very granular league system- for example, there are 13(!) professional soccer teams in London, and I suspect that there’s a lot of local pride and identity wrapped up with say… living in Lewisham and following Millwall FC, and their neighbors in Rotherhithe support Fisher F.C. But I agree that it’s more social norms and mores; we just haven’t had that level of hostility in the US, regardless of rivalry, social class, etc. even at high school sporting events, where you’d think tensions would be highest, since they’re intensely local, and as a result, reflect the differences in society even more starkly than something as generic as our pro sports teams. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/29 "2019-05-07T21:33:49Z")
Well, if there isn’t violence in Barcelona after today’s result, there oughta be! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/30 "2019-05-07T22:02:07Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Well, if there isn’t violence in Barcelona after today’s result, there oughta be! They’re getting a taste of what they did to Paris St-Germain back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/31 "2019-05-07T23:05:28Z")
Today’s Champions League result is fucking awesome! **Go Reds!** I was resigned, after the first leg, to that being Liverpool’s end of the road. I was actually saying, somewhat sarcastically, to a friend of mine a few days ago, “Well, the only way they win the draw is a 4-0 victory in the second leg. Wouldn’t that be awesome. Ha ha!” I didn’t think there was a snowball’s chance in hell of such a result. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/32 "2019-05-08T00:47:20Z")
One more derail - you gotta hand it to Barca for their consistency in dropping 3-goal Champions League advantages (to Roma last year). ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/33 "2019-05-08T01:23:01Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > To add a few more :p:p:p:p > > Arguably the most intense rivlary on the planet, in any sport, is the Old Firm derby - Rangers and Celtics. No other sport has even remotely the same religious and political conflicts that exist between the Protestant (and Unionist) Rangers and the Catholic (and Irish nationalist) Celtic. As you can imagine, this would bring about an absolute tinderbox of clashing loyalties, where brawling on the streets before games is not uncommon. > > Often regarded as the second most intense rivalry in the world - South America’s Boca Jr. vs River Plate - the fans’ warring shenanigans is based more on economics, where Boca fans are (stereotyped?) as the proles’ team, while River Plate are regarded as the “rich man’s” team. Again, such underlying dynamics cannot be found anywhere else between opponents of any sport, however the actual violence that perpetuates between the fans of these two sides is fortunately not as protracted as it is with the Old Firm. Maybe not _that_ unique; doesn’t that exact ethnoreligious divide also exist between Hibernian (Irish, immigrant, Catholic) and Hearts of Midlothian (nativist, Unionist, Protestant), in Edinburgh? But Hearts-Hibs is not nearly as notorious as Rangers-Celtic. Why? Either Hearts and Hibs fans are less violent (not the impression you get reading Irving Welsh); or their conflict just doesn’t get the coverage that the Old Firm does. Scottish Dopers want to weigh in? > [@RaftPeople](#): > > I think the issue is noted right in your title: “football(soccer)” > > The fans are extremely angry about that confusion because their sport had the name football first. Oh, this again. Soccer and gridiron can both be called “football” in exactly the same way, and for exactly the same reason, that gorillas and chimpanzees can both be called “apes”. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/34 "2019-05-08T13:42:51Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Is it a fair statement that Brits are the most houligan-y travelling fans? And if so, why? No, it isn’t. British hooligans had the most publicity in the 70s/80s, which probably has as much to do with a free press as much as anything. You didn’t get to see much behind the iron curtain in those days. There are hooligan elements in many countries - and it’s true that British fans often get picked on during international competitions by locals looking for a fight. But they are less likely to be the ones that start it these days. ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/35 "2019-05-18T15:21:30Z")
One of my favorite soccer authors, Paul Gardner, once wrote that he believes it does (although I think he framed it more around the term “passion” rather than “violence”) because of the low-scoring nature of the sport where “the scoring of a goal, the one goal that could decide the game, means the joyful, explosive release of dammed-up hopes for one group of fans, utter despair for the other.” (the end of Italy vs. Germany 2006 comes to mind when I read/recall that) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/36 "2019-05-25T00:41:23Z")
As **mhendo** pointed out: > [@](#): > > This article (you need a JSTOR account), from all the way back in 1980, compares soccer in Britain with the then-fairly-new emergence of professional soccer in the United States. The author concluded that fan violence was unlikely to be as much of a factor in the United States, largely due to different social and economic and cultural factors among the crowds, and also physical issues like stadium design. > > Factors contributing to violence in the UK, according to the author, included the working-class nature of the game, the incredibly social and collective nature of fandom, the cramped and dirty conditions on the terraces (this was before the rise of all-seat stadiums), the comparative lack of women and children in the stands, and the ritualized nature of game attendance, often including long bus rides starting before dawn in order to get to away games, and extended drinking sessions in pubs and taverns before the game. As an interesting bit that shows how the sport is not likely to be the issue, in the 1960’s football (yes, the American sport.) in Mexico was very popular at the universities, and the rivalry, other unrests and heavy hand of the authorities back then, generated riots and then a massacre. > **[The Incredible History of American Football in Mexico](https://thelab.bleacherreport.com/after-the-massacre-1968-mexico-city-american-football/)** > > A tragic past awaits the NFL's return > [@](#): > > Revolutionary uprisings were erupting all over the world in 1968. That summer, as Mexico prepared to become the first Latin American country to host an Olympic Games, unrest first emerged on the UNAM campus. It started at a football game. > > “At the universities, even at the high schools, it’s the students’ sport,’’ Coach Rivera says of football, echoing the words Hector Castro told me at the game. “Soccer is for everybody, but football is most popular with the students.” > > Two high school teams affiliated with UNAM and its big rival IPN played each other in late July 1968. After the game, a fight broke out among fans. The fight itself has been described as no particular big deal. The government’s response, though, felt like overkill. Riot police barricaded students inside UNAM’s high school, holding them captive for days. One officer discharged a bazooka, obliterating a door that had been hand-carved in the 18th century. > > The UNAM student body rallied against the police aggression. The rector of the university joined the cause, lowering flags to half-mast and referring to the trapped students as political prisoners. The UNAM campus emptied into the streets, marchers shouting “Unete pueblo!” People unite! > > Into August, the movement’s leaders found their voice. They demanded the release of political prisoners, the abolition of the riot police and other liberal reforms. When the demands were not met, students chanted insults at President Gustavo Diaz Ordaz, which had never been done; Mexican presidents had always been treated with reverence. Marching into El Zocalo, the capital’s main square and the symbolic center of the country, the students vowed to stay overnight, or stay for a week, if that’s what it took. President Diaz Ordaz responded with tanks, first in the main square, then eventually onto the UNAM campus, which he shut down. > > By October 2, with the Olympics about to start, Diaz Ordaz warned that he had tolerated student criticism, but “todo tiene un limite.” Everything has a limit. Grainy footage of a student rally in the Plaza of the Three Cultures shows young children in the crowd that day, and at least one pet dog. From a third-story terrace in an apartment building that fronts the plaza, students aired their grievances. Armed troops massed in the ruins of the old Aztec city. A military helicopter twirled overhead. When a flare dropped from the helicopter onto the plaza, the crowd scattered in confusion. Then the shots rang out. > > It’s still unclear exactly what happened. The general consensus, all these years later, is that the first shots came from snipers planted by the government, and that the bullets were intended to spook the troops on the ground. Those troops fired back, striking one student after another. A low estimate counted maybe 40 dead. Other estimates start at 300 people killed, with the true number possibly much higher. (Remains of massacre victims have been discovered as recently as 2007.) Films show bodies falling onto the plaza’s slate tiles. And then more bodies. And then more bodies still. > > “The most traumatic part was the next day,” says Rivera. “The main TV news in Mexico started with an announcement that Mexico is waking up to a sunny day. Nobody said anything! Everybody was expecting questions like, ‘What happened? Why did they shoot them? Why are there so many dead?’ And yet, nothing.” > > The massacre at Tlatelolco effectively ended Mexico’s student movement. Ten days later, at Estadio Olimpico, President Diaz Ordaz opened the Summer Games. Volunteers released thousands of doves in a symbolic reference to the Games’ theme, which was peace. > > ✦ ✦ ✦ > > The 1968 football season was canceled across Mexico. In 1969 UNAM tried to field a team but other universities declined to play them. A year after that, in 1970, Pumas players were divided into three separate squads, to dilute their talent. The games of those three teams were monitored closely by the government. Garcia Miravete, the former player, tells me rowdy “fans” were planted in the stands to disrupt the games, to steal wallets and purses, to smash stuff and make the stadiums unattractive places to spend an afternoon. Castro, the doctor and Pumas fan, tells me the same thing, as do several histories I’ve read. > > “They didn’t want the students to get together, so they tried to disrupt football,” Castro says. “There was still that taboo linked to football, because of what happened in ‘68.” > > UNAM football players didn’t unite again as one team until 30 years after the massacre, in 1998. I became aware of that in the 1970’s via a Mexican political comic; they pointed out that, back then, there were opinions in the Mexican press _that blamed the violence on American football_ as it was seen by several then as a very violent sport that incited the same. So, besides the government heavy hand, the blame was conveniently passed to the sport and it lost a lot of popularity in Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331/37 "2019-05-26T05:12:52Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Maybe not _that_ unique; doesn’t that exact ethnoreligious divide also exist between Hibernian (Irish, immigrant, Catholic) and Hearts of Midlothian (nativist, Unionist, Protestant), in Edinburgh? But Hearts-Hibs is not nearly as notorious as Rangers-Celtic. Why? Either Hearts and Hibs fans are less violent (not the impression you get reading Irving Welsh); or their conflict just doesn’t get the coverage that the Old Firm does. Scottish Dopers want to weigh in? > > Oh, this again. Soccer and gridiron can both be called “football” in exactly the same way, and for exactly the same reason, that gorillas and chimpanzees can both be called “apes”. The Edinburgh divide is probably not as bad as the Glasgow one but it does exist, and yes, Hibs are as among the most violent in Scotland. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-football-soccer-breed-more-fan-violence-than-other-sports-and-if-so-why/833331.md?page=1)