# Does France have a double standard on freedom of speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953 "2015-01-16T02:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/41 "2015-01-16T11:12:13Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [Thank you, dear Muslimaat](http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2013/04/12/comment/columns/thank-you-dear-muslimaat/) … so your response to “I don’t like when men not of my religion to tell me what I should think or do” is a link to the horribly paternalist, condescending screed of a man not of her religion telling her what to think or do ? OK, then. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/42 "2015-01-16T11:19:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Never let your brain get in the way of your principles. Knock it off or take it to The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/43 "2015-01-16T11:28:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … so your response to “I don’t like when men not of my religion to tell me what I should think or do” is a link to the horribly paternalist, condescending screed of a man not of her religion telling her what to think or do ? > > OK, then. It is because of course not white not christian culture people can not think for themselves and in bigotted discourses about them, it is “making it all about them” for them to speak rather than remain silent and have fat white men make speeches about people they despise and hate but wish to pretend to have concern over to cover the bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/44 "2015-01-16T11:31:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. > > There are all kinds of religious practices that children are forced to engage in, and yet no one feels the need to swoop down and save them. No one asks the baby boy if he wants his foreskin snipped, or whether he wants to wear one of these [these](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Sikh_Boy_wearing_Patka.jpg) or sport [these](http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4619/jewishlocks.jpg). Should these practices be banned too? > > Lots of women all over the world happily choose to wear hijabs. There’s nothing inherently oppressive about them, and they can be quite [lovely](https://www.google.com/search?q=sikh+turban&biw=1366&bih=631&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MoG4VOntM4emNouegbgB&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=fashionable+hijabs&imgdii=_). Circumcision is under serious debate for being child abuse, and will probably be banned some time down the road. We’re moving that way now. Female Genital Mutilation - which some also claim a religious ground for - is certainly strictly prohibited. Conspicuous religious symbols like the scarf are banned in French public primary and secondary schools which emphases secularity - much the same way the USA does. It’s not a matter of freedom of speech. They can dress up as they please in their own home, or they can go to a private school. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/45 "2015-01-16T11:39:15Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I find it more problematic when white men not of our religion And being a white man not of your religion I don’t really give a shit what you think and in general non-white women not of my religion should just keep quiet. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/46 "2015-01-16T12:46:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I have to say this very often on the Dope, but no country on earth gives its citizens the unrestricted right to say anything in any situation, or to freely express themselves in any way. Everywhere has to have some restrictions on both, even the US. > So essentially we’re all engaging in a double-standard, if we’re going to frame things that way. The funny thing about American free speech on a social level is the whole schizophrenic “I’ll defend your right to say X and Y to the death!” followed quickly by “but if you say something I really disagree with I will try to ruin your career and turn you into a social pariah.” Because that doesn’t have a chilling effect at all. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/47 "2015-01-16T13:21:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I find it more problematic when white men not of our religion tell us what we should do and think or do or decide what we want in the majority based not on any knoweldge of us or our religion, but on their prejudices and bigotry against our religion and us. > > in my family no girl who wears the hidjab was forced, in fact many of us in the older generation do not like the idea, but it was a culture identification choice much in reaction against people like you, preaching when we find you ignorant and condescending to us. The problem here is that it’s hard to tell the best way to promote individual liberty in the case of the burka. There are two main choices: 1. Do nothing; the burqa can be worn by any who chooses it. In this case, I’m not doing anything personally to infringe on the personal liberty of women who genuinely want to wear the burqa; bully for me! However, I’m standing by while some women are forced to wear the burqa by jerks in their family: boo for me! 2. Ban the burqa. In this case, I’m personally infringing on the personal liberty of women who genuinely want to wear the burqa; boo for me! However, I’m not standing by while some women are forced to wear the burqa by jerks in their family: bully for me! I honestly don’t know which of these options is the better way to promote the value of personal liberty, although I lean toward the first, and hope there’s a third way. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/48 "2015-01-16T13:31:56Z")
Not the first time someone’s pointed out the insanity of conflicting American impulses, God knows. On the subject of a French double standard it’s clear that the French people/government have some conflicting impulses as well. It is also clear the freedom of speech - as most of the west defines it (there are disagreements) - isn’t total and complete. Certain religious practices from the past - human sacrifice and so forth - wouldn’t be tolerated even if it were descending from on high. So the idea of a limit shouldn’t be a surprise. On the subject of hijab/burkas I find it strange to ban a hijab but if french law allows such then I guess more power to them. I do see a practical reason to argue against the overall burka when it comes to government ID and such. Can’t have a picture ID if there’s no face available to take a picture of now. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/49 "2015-01-16T14:04:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem here is that it’s hard to tell the best way to promote individual liberty in the case of the burka. There are two main choices: > > 1. Do nothing; the burqa can be worn by any who chooses it. In this case, I’m not doing anything personally to infringe on the personal liberty of women who genuinely want to wear the burqa; bully for me! However, I’m standing by while some women are forced to wear the burqa by jerks in their family: boo for me! Here’s the thing : adult women being forced by their husbands, or parents, or employers to do _anything_ they don’t want to do already have the full backing of the State, and have options - from divorce to restraining orders to shelters to social workers to shrinks to lawsuits to police protection etc… Why does “he forces her to wear a tent !” need to be a super special case, and why should the best solution we can find to that super special case happens to be “Off with the tents ! All of them !” ? And the only answer to this question that makes any sense is that behind all the “protecting the women” crapola, it’s fundamentally about us not having our eyes violated by the sight of women in burqas. You know, the Other. Or the invading Saracen hordes, the Muslim Problem and what have you. Simple as that. I mean, it’s not like “you can’t wear burqas in public” actually addresses the problem it is purportedly designed to fix. He’ll \*still \*make her wear the tent. But now she can’t leave the house, either. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/50 "2015-01-16T15:52:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … so your response to “I don’t like when men not of my religion to tell me what I should think or do” is a link to the horribly paternalist, condescending screed of a man not of her religion telling her what to think or do ? > > OK, then. The author is Muslim, or Muslimish, at least. He is definitely not white, which was apparently important, until he spoke out against the “my hijab my choice” narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/51 "2015-01-16T15:57:41Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > What is your point other than bigotry? What is bigotted is ignoring the fact that most Muslim women who wear the hijab or burqa are coerced into doing so, simply because you and your’s happen to be lucky enough to escape their fate. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/52 "2015-01-16T16:01:47Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The funny thing about American free speech on a social level is the whole schizophrenic “I’ll defend your right to say X and Y to the death!” followed quickly by “but if you say something I really disagree with I will try to ruin your career and turn you into a social pariah.” Because that doesn’t have a chilling effect at all. Drawing a distinction between legal consequences and social consequences is hardly schizophrenic. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/53 "2015-01-16T16:06:23Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What is bigotted is ignoring the fact that most Muslim women who wear the hijab or burqa are coerced into doing so, simply because you and your’s happen to be lucky enough to escape their fate. Perhaps in the Middle East, but we are talking about the West right? I’m sure there are folks who are coerced into wearing the hijab or burka. However (I was raised Muslim), I’ve never seen that coercion among the Muslim community I grew up with in the US. The Muslim women (including my mother) went uncovered or wore a hijab depending on what they believed. To relegate ALL wearers of the hijab as being coerced is definitely a bigoted stance, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/54 "2015-01-16T16:09:56Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What is bigotted is ignoring the fact that most Muslim women who wear the hijab or burqa are coerced into doing so, simply because you and your’s happen to be lucky enough to escape their fate. You assert a false fact out of bigotry. There is not law that imposes the hidjab in almost all the islamic world saving the iranians and in reality the niqab and the burqa - which is a thing of the Afghanistan and the pakistan - are very rare. Not that you know one thing about us that is not read in bigotted sources. No that is bigotted, and your fake concern for muslim women does not impress, it is a mere pretext for hatred and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/55 "2015-01-16T16:18:30Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What is bigotted is ignoring the fact that most Muslim women who wear the hijab or burqa are coerced into doing so, simply because you and your’s happen to be lucky enough to escape their fate. 😕 You clearly disagree with Ramira, which is fine, but how is this disagreement predicated on bigotry on Ramira’s part? Totally not seeing it. As for the “fact” that most Muslim women in burqa/hijab are coerced into doing so–especially in France, the subject of the thread–I’d really love to see a cite on that. If you can cite this one claim, you’ll probably change my mind on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/56 "2015-01-16T16:28:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > You assert a false fact out of bigotry. There is not law that imposes the hidjab in almost all the islamic world saving the iranians and in reality the niqab and the burqa - which is a thing of the Afghanistan and the pakistan - are very rare. Not that you know one thing about us that is not read in bigotted sources. No that is bigotted, and your fake concern for muslim women does not impress, it is a mere pretext for hatred and bigotry. Cut it with the bigotry accusations, ok? You don’t have a fucking clue. This whole idea that criticism of misogynistic Islamic codes of conduct somehow equals bigotry is just stupid. It’s Newspeak, and people are tired of it. There are many ways for people to be coerced other than laws, and of course millions of Muslim women DO live under laws that require them to cover their hair. The women I know who travel to Pakistan cover their head while in public, not because there is a law that mandates it, but to avoid being verbally and/or sexually assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/57 "2015-01-16T16:34:50Z")
And yet, my mother was just in Pakistan (we’re Pakistani) for a wedding. In every Facebook picture, she is uncovered. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/58 "2015-01-16T16:35:20Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Cut it with the bigotry accusations, ok? It is a fact. > [@](#): > > You don’t have a fucking clue. Ah it is interesting how a person who knows only about Muslim countries and the religion from the internet had more understanding of our cultures and our laws than a person edcuated in both and living and working in the islamic countries. It is the false consciousness versus the great wisdom of hte googler. > [@](#): > > This whole idea that criticism of misogynistic Islamic codes of conduct somehow equals bigotry is just stupid. this is a straw man and a false statement. What is bigotry is exagerated and made up accusations that are instrumentalised to make a burqa for prejudice and bigotry. An assertion that of course women are forced to wear a hidjab - although in fact here no one is forced and many do not, and even more wear it because of personal belief reasons… that is bigotry. enough of the fake concern to be used as excuses to attack and spread hatred. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/59 "2015-01-16T16:38:28Z")
Speaking of Pakistan, I note that there are currently anti-French protests going on there, with the rabble all upset about the alleged insult to Mohammed. A French journalist was shot, but apparently not seriously injured. Which certainly undermines any theory that the Charlie Hebdo terrorists had ulterior motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/60 "2015-01-16T16:40:27Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > There are many ways for people to be coerced other than laws, and of course millions of Muslim women DO live under laws that require them to cover their hair. Fine–can you back up your claim that “most Muslim women who wear the hijab or burqa are coerced into doing so,” specifically in France–or can you clarify that in this discussion of France’s freedom of speech, you’re talking about burqa-wearing in other countries? You can define “coerced” in any reasonable way, but I’d like you to show evidence to support your claim, if you have evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=4)