# Does France have a double standard on freedom of speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953 "2015-01-16T02:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/81 "2015-01-16T19:09:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > So some of you white men believe that the best way to deal with women being forced to wear the burkha is to…force them not to wear it? > > That is awesome. What’s with all this blatant racism and sexism all of a sudden? There are no white Muslims? Men aren’t allowed to have an opinion on matters regarding females? People from one faith, or no faith, shouldn’t speak on generalities pertaining to people that may belong to other faiths? Awesome. I say, it’s very disturbing the way uppity negros and unseemingly womenfolk are behaving in public these days. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/82 "2015-01-16T19:11:11Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Even when going shopping - Shit, the vast majority of women at any mall in Karachi or Lahore are uncovered. The only time I’ve ever seen her wear a hijab in Pakistan is at the mosque at prayer. Otherwise, nope. > > This is bordering on ridiculous stereotyping of Pakistan. No it’s not. There are all kinds of privileged bubbles people float around in there, that doesn’t change the fact that women very often cover their heads when in public to avoid the negative attention directed at those who do not. Not everyone shops exclusively inside air conditioned malls. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/83 "2015-01-16T19:17:00Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > No it’s not. There are all kinds of privileged bubbles people float around in there, that doesn’t change the fact that women very often cover their heads when in public to avoid the negative attention directed at those who do not. Not everyone shops exclusively inside air conditioned malls. Seems to be an awful lot of backing away here. Ironic that you speak of bubbles. I’m just going to trust what I’ve seen and what my family has seen over your unsubstantiated claims, k? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/84 "2015-01-16T19:17:27Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > There are vast sections of the United States (like the construction site on the corner of my neighborhood) where women cannot be in public covered or not without being verbally harassed. Similar in kind but not in degree. When a woman who would rather not wear a bra or shirt does so simply to avoid unwanted attention, in a situation where a man would be free to do so unmolested, the same principle is being violated by our cultural taboos and conditioning. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/85 "2015-01-16T19:20:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Seems to be an awful lot of backing away here. Ironic that you speak of bubbles. > > I’m just going to trust what I’ve seen and what my family has seen over your unsubstantiated claims, k? I am not backing away one bit. Is it your claim that women in Pakistan do not wear head coverings in public places to avoid the unwanted attention of men who are conditioned to think of and treat uncovered women as morally inferior? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/86 "2015-01-16T19:25:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If I understand correctly the hijab is just a head scarf. The other items discussed were essentially face masks or entire body masks. There’s no reason other than bigotry to prohibit hijabs. I thought only the “essentially face masks or entire body masks” versions were banned?😕 “The ban is officially called, ‘the bill to forbid concealing one’s face in public.’ “It refers neither to Islam nor to veils. Officials insist the law against face-covering is not discriminatory because it would apply to everyone, not just Muslims. They cite a host of exceptions, including motorcycle helmets, or masks for health reasons, fencing, skiing or carnivals.”[28]” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/87 "2015-01-16T19:25:59Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I am not backing away one bit. Is it your claim that women in Pakistan do not wear head coverings in public places to avoid the unwanted attention of men who are conditioned to think of and treat uncovered women as morally inferior? I’d say some women do that, sure, just like some women here wear high collars for similar reasons. In neither case should the women be forbidden from making the sartorial choices they want to make because of guys being assholes. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/88 "2015-01-16T19:27:06Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I am not backing away one bit. Is it your claim that women in Pakistan do not wear head coverings in public places to avoid the unwanted attention of men who are conditioned to think of and treat uncovered women as morally inferior? Some women do wear hijabs in public, some women do not. All women in Pakistan don’t follow one convention or the other. For example of women in the market not wearing head covering, here is a picture of a bazaar in DHA, Karachi: [![](https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3161/2384123029_c22585f35f.jpg) ](https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3161/2384123029_c22585f35f.jpg) Another one showing a bazar before Eid: [http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/var/albums/News-%26-Politics/Day-in-Pics%3A-5th-August-2012/120805-53.jpg](http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/var/albums/News-%26-Politics/Day-in-Pics%3A-5th-August-2012/120805-53.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/89 "2015-01-16T19:30:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’d say some women do that, sure, just like some women here wear high collars for similar reasons. “Just like”, in the sense that the same principle is being violated, but no where nearly the same in terms of degree or in terms of potential physical danger. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/90 "2015-01-16T19:30:59Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The funny thing about American free speech on a social level is the whole schizophrenic “I’ll defend your right to say X and Y to the death!” followed quickly by “but if you say something I really disagree with I will try to ruin your career and turn you into a social pariah.” Because that doesn’t have a chilling effect at all. That’s not schizophrenic, at all. It is consistent with the principle of free and open discourse. You can say what you want, but you are not immune to the social repercussions. If you are free to express intolerant ideas, people are free to protest you and your ideas. The result is _social_ condemnation, not state condemnation. If free peoples decide to reject your ideas, then democracy wins. If the government decides to outlaw your ideas, then free speech loses. The chilling effect has to due with suffering legal consequences for the ideas you express. Which is the domain of the state, not the marketplace of ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/91 "2015-01-16T19:33:19Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > “Just like”, in the sense that the same principle is being violated, but no where nearly the same in terms of degree or in terms of potential physical danger. Okay. Sure. It’s still unfair of you to respond to the problem of men being violent misogynists by restricting women’s choices; indeed, it’s an approach more in keeping with the approach of the misogynists than otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/92 "2015-01-16T19:40:28Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Some women do wear hijabs in public, some women do not. All women in Pakistan don’t follow one convention or the other. > > For example of women in the market not wearing head covering, here is a picture of a bazaar in DHA, Karachi: > > [https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3161/2384123029\_c22585f35f.jpg](https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3161/2384123029_c22585f35f.jpg) > > Another one showing a bazar before Eid: > > [http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/var/albums/News-%26-Politics/Day-in-Pics%3A-5th-August-2012/120805-53.jpg](http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/var/albums/News-%26-Politics/Day-in-Pics%3A-5th-August-2012/120805-53.jpg) Right. You can find pictures of uncovered women in Pakistan. It is not as common as it used to be, but still common. [Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy:](http://nocompulsion.com/a-pakistani-nuclear-physicist-deep-down-muslims-feel-that-they-have-failed/) > [@](#): > > When I started teaching here at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad in the early ‘70s, there was only a single student in the entire campus wearing a burka. Today around 70 per cent of the women here are fully covered. Only 30 per cent go around normally. The existence of women who still hold out against the pressure to cover in public is not evidence that this pressure does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/93 "2015-01-16T19:48:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay. Sure. It’s still unfair of you to respond to the problem of men being violent misogynists by restricting women’s choices; indeed, it’s an approach more in keeping with the approach of the misogynists than otherwise. I can’t really get behind the burqa ban because it seems it could backfire and result in women not even being let out of the house. As far as the strain of Islam that denies women public identity by requiring the burqa, I can say that it is entirely incompatible with Western culture for reasons generally similar to the reasons that Mormon’s polygamist ideology was, independent of the degree to which the women involved in either scenario consent to be compliant with the rules of the systems that ensconce them. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/94 "2015-01-16T19:56:51Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Right. You can find pictures of uncovered women in Pakistan. It is not as common as it used to be, but still common. So, you were… wrong? I’ll quote you: > [@](#): > > Is it your claim that women in Pakistan do not wear head coverings in public places to avoid the unwanted attention of men who are conditioned to think of and treat uncovered women as morally inferior? And you were asserting that my mother who went around uncovered was naturally going to wear headcovering while shopping… but not in a mall… of course… because… reasons. But… it’s common to have uncovered women in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/95 "2015-01-16T19:57:36Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I can’t really get behind the burqa ban because it seems it could backfire and result in women not even being let out of the house. > > As far as the strain of Islam that denies women public identity by requiring the burqa, I can say that it is entirely incompatible with Western culture for reasons generally similar to the reasons that Mormon’s polygamist ideology was, independent of the degree to which the women involved in either scenario consent to be compliant with the rules of the systems that ensconce them. I sort of agree, but only because Western culture often balances its belief in personal liberty with a chauvinistic and dismissive attitude toward other cultures. In that sense, respecting the liberty of other folks when they exercise it in a way we find distasteful is indeed incompatible with Western culture. The right of free speech allows people to say terrible things. The right of self-determination allows people to make suboptimal life choices. To the extent that women are truly being forced to wear a burqa in Western societies (and I note you’ve not cited that claim), there’s a problem–but the problem should be addressed with the people doing the coercion. But to the extent that women are choosing to wear the burqa, **for whatever reason** , the only acceptable reason to prevent wearing it are reasons of public safety. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/96 "2015-01-16T20:03:07Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy:](http://nocompulsion.com/a-pakistani-nuclear-physicist-deep-down-muslims-feel-that-they-have-failed/) > The existence of women who still hold out against the pressure to cover in public is not evidence that this pressure does not exist. As for this, if you put in “Quaid-e-azam Unversity” in Google Images, you’ll see tons of pictures where a handful, at best, are “fully covered”. A lot of women wear hijabs. There are women that go around uncovered. And somehow you look at 70% wearing headscarves and 30% uncovered (if those numbers are correct) and seem to think this means that women in Pakistan in general are getting pressured and coerced into wearing headscarves? What about those 30% uncovered? Are they simply heroes standing up to the men in school who are pressuring? Some families certainly do pressure their female children to wear headcoverings. That doesn’t mean most of them do or that women wearing headscarfs or burkas are doing it out of fear. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/97 "2015-01-16T20:19:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [France banned an ad depicting Jesus as a female because of its “intrusion on people’s innermost beliefs”](http://xrepublic.tv/node/11855) I’m pretty sure this was reversed on appeal. I believe I read about it recently as an example of cases lost by peple trying to curtail the freedom to mock religion. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/98 "2015-01-16T20:25:28Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So, you were… wrong? > > I’ll quote you: > And you were asserting that my mother who went around uncovered was naturally going to wear headcovering while shopping… but not in a mall… of course… because… reasons. > > But… it’s common to have uncovered women in Pakistan. You did not ever answer the question that you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/99 "2015-01-16T20:27:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Comedian to stand trial as France cracks down on hate speech](http://news.yahoo.com/french-comedian-dieudonnes-arrest-sparks-free-speech-debate-150125064.html) Yes, he’s prosecuted for apology of crime, or something similar. Not convinced this case will stand since his statement doesn’t seem to me to amount to what he’s charged with. However Dieudonné is generally speaking a good example of how freedom of speech is more limited in France than in the USA. He’s been sued and prosecuted several times, and some of his shows forbidden for incitment to racial hatred or similar reasons. For the record, he’s an antisemite with a peculiar bend. Amongst the things he thinks Jews are guilty of is black slavery and same-sex marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/100 "2015-01-16T20:38:20Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > What about those 30% uncovered? Are they simply heroes standing up to the men in school who are pressuring? In some cases they are, yes. Are you denying the propagation in Pakistan over the past 40 years of an ideology which teaches that women who do not cover are morally inferior to pious covered women? Are you denying that this leads uncovered women to be attacked by disgusting men who feel that the women are just getting what is coming to them, due to their belief in this disgusting ideology? Are you denying that Muslim women are _taught_ to cover up for _security_? [I do not know why you would.](https://twitter.com/PakistanAtheist/status/309359495644061696/photo/1) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=6)