# Does France have a double standard on freedom of speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953 "2015-01-16T02:16:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/141 "2015-01-17T00:41:00Z")
> **[How people in Muslim countries prefer women to dress in public](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/01/08/what-is-appropriate-attire-for-women-in-muslim-countries/)** > > Even as publics in many of the surveyed Muslim-majority countries express a clear preference for women to dress conservatively, many also say women should be able to decide for themselves what to wear. > [@](#): > > An important issue in the Muslim world is how women should dress in public. A recent survey from the University of Michigan’s Institute for Social Research conducted in seven Muslim-majority countries (Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Turkey), finds that most people prefer that a woman completely cover her hair, but not necessarily her face. Only in Turkey and Lebanon do more than one-in-four think it is appropriate for a woman to not cover her head at all in public. So it looks like _two percent_ of Pakistanis consider it acceptable for a woman to appear in public with her hair fully exposed. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/142 "2015-01-17T00:44:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you want to troll, go to The BBQ Pit. > > [/Moderating] That’s not trolling. I was giving a rather clear analogy worded strongly since I obviously do not agree: if the opinion of white males and specific religions can be singled out and disregarded as a group, so can the opinion of non-white women of other religions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/143 "2015-01-17T01:05:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > That’s not trolling. I was giving a rather clear analogy worded strongly since I obviously do not agree: if the opinion of white males and specific religions can be singled out and disregarded as a group, so can the opinion of non-white women of other religions. Disagreement? Nah. Your post was worded to incite a reaction, not as a rebuttal to an opinion. If you have further issues, take it to ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/144 "2015-01-17T01:19:20Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > [How people in Muslim countries prefer women to dress in public | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/08/what-is-appropriate-attire-for-women-in-muslim-countries/) > > So it looks like _two percent_ of Pakistanis consider it acceptable for a woman to appear in public with her hair fully exposed. It would seem that it would have been simpler to post your citation, as I asked, rather than having a hissy fit. I am not sure that your assertion is proven, since you have not actually demonstrated that women will be harassed for not following the preferred custom. The question asked was what is “most appropriate”?, not what is or should be permitted? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/145 "2015-01-17T01:22:28Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Or you could just abuse your authority over the conversation, as usual. If you have an actual complaint about my moderating, take it to **ATMB**. This sort of irrelevant sniping has no place in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/146 "2015-01-17T01:24:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The question asked was what is “most appropriate”?, not what is or should be permitted? You’re both wrong :). From the cite: > [@](#): > > Even as publics in many of the surveyed countries express a clear preference for women to dress conservatively, many also say women should be able to decide for themselves what to wear. This attitude is most prevalent in Tunisia (56%), Turkey (52%) and Lebanon (49%) – all countries where substantial percentages are open to women not covering their heads in public. But nearly as many in Saudi Arabia (47%) also say a women should be free to choose how she dresses. Smaller, but sizable percentages agree in Iraq (27%), Pakistan (22%) and Egypt (14%). What the survey leaves unanswered is whether respondents think social or cultural norms will guide women in their choice to wear more conservative or less conservative attire in public. So yeah, assuming this is a good survey, it suggests that 78% of Pakistanis don’t think a woman should be free to choose how she dresses–and that’s a big freakin’ problem. I would bet good money that you’d get a much higher percentage on this question in the US, so this isn’t a place where we can draw real equivalencies between Pakistan and the US. And I’d be very interested in the answers to that exact question in France–that is, how many folks in France think a woman should be allowed to wear a burqa if she wants? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/147 "2015-01-17T01:27:29Z")
[Veiling and Unveiling: Attitudes and Experiences of University Students in the Punjab](http://ijsse.com/sites/default/files/issues/2011/v1i4/paper%205/paper%205.pdf) > [@](#): > > A very large majority of Muslim women cover their head, and this number is increasing with the passage of time. Even in countries where the hijab is not required, today younger Muslim women are covering their heads although they do not wear a full face veil. Young female students who take veil and who do not take veil were asked about their perception about veiling. Young female students who take veil told the reasons why women wear veil range from personal religious devotion to the cultural and political factors. Similar findings were found by Wing and Smith who surveyed and summarized some reasons as follows: personal religious conviction, freedom of religion, acceptance as a good Muslim female, compliance with family values, **neutralization of sexuality and protection from harassment from males** , and individual choice and religious/ cultural identity (as cited in Clark, 2007). Women perceive that the veil is a way to get personal freedom in a world that objectifies women. Muslim women use arguments of freedom, control and liberation to explain and legitimize the concealment of those parts of the body that are assumed to arouse the lust of men (Gressgård, 2006). > [@](#): > > In lower middle class families, traditionally, veil is acceptable having its roots in religion as well as concept of\*\* safety of their daughters\*\* in a society where females are vulnerable to a lot of perceived dangers e.g. staring of males etc. > [@](#): > > For Muslim women decisions about dress, modesty and protection of honour are multilayered. Theology, culture, identity and\*\* personal safety \*\*all have influences. The headscarf may feel repressive to some, but voluntarily adopted can be viewed as liberating the women from being and feeling sexualized—being regarded and regarding themselves as sexually attractive first and intelligent human beings only second. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/148 "2015-01-17T01:51:07Z")
Hank, you are cherry-picking phrases that do not really support your claim. Your first bolded statement (the only one that supports your claim), harassment for failing to cover the head is one of several reasons given for covering the head, and it is neither the first nor last reason given, leaving the strength of its force unknown. The other references are to protection from sexist catcalls of the sort that are periodically cited as a problem for women in New York or Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/149 "2015-01-17T01:56:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Hank, you are cherry-picking phrases that do not really support your claim. Your first bolded statement (the only one that supports your claim), harassment for failing to cover the head is one of several reasons given for covering the head, and it is neither the first nor last reason given, leaving the strength of its force unknown. > > The other references are to protection from sexist catcalls of the sort that are periodically cited as a problem for women in New York or Rome. What? I have given a citation that one of the reasons that women in Pakistan cover their head is for **safety**. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/150 "2015-01-17T02:07:27Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What? I have given a citation that one of the reasons that women in Pakistan cover their head is for **safety**. Which differs from your original claim that in “vast sections” of Pakistan, they did it to avoid religious persecution. You’ve already been through this earlier, today, and seem willing to move as many goalposts as you need to to cling to your belief. Have fun with it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/151 "2015-01-17T02:16:45Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Where did anyone assert this? > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > What about when she went shopping? So if you didn’t assert that women throw on headscarves while shopping due to religious pressure, what exactly did you mean here? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/152 "2015-01-17T02:17:51Z")
> **[The Hijab as the Solution to Rape?](http://islam-and-gender.blogspot.com/2010/12/hijab-as-solution-to-rape.html)** > > About a year ago, I realized something: We're told to wear the hijab in order to avoid being molested, and I, along with many other Muslim... > [@](#): > > Pashtun from Swat. Graduate student. Interested in all things gender/sexuality and Islam/religion. I identify openly, happily, and proudly as an Islamic feminist. I tweet @qrratugai. And I want it to rain on my wedding day 🙂 > [@](#): > > We’re also told that wearing the hijab **reduces our chance of being raped/molested/teased** otherwise. But, but, but, but . . . but here’s the problem with that: By covering ourselves so much, are we REALLY helping solve the problem of those hungry beasts who are looking for women to rape? Or are we submitting to their beliefs and wishes and placing on women ALONE the burdens of morality and peace and stability in our society, which we share with our male counterparts as well? Are there any other solutions to the problems of hungry beasts, or is this the only one? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/153 "2015-01-17T02:19:49Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So if you didn’t assert that women throw on headscarves while shopping due to religious pressure, what exactly did you mean here? I asserted and have shown that one of the reasons that women in Pakistan wear head coverings in public is for safety from being harassed and attacked by men who feel that uncovered women are “asking for it”. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/154 "2015-01-17T03:12:04Z")
[Street harassment: The blame lies with women](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Q7kyhVMR8) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/155 "2015-01-17T03:58:33Z")
Of course street harassment of women is extremely rare in New York, London, and relevant to the thread… Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/156 "2015-01-17T11:18:35Z")
It is so lucky that we have the internet white knights who hate us to save us from ourselves so we can be cat called by good white christian heritage people who are not scary to them. he will never admit he made lies and exagerations for justification, it is too important to the fake solicitude which is nothing but a politically convenient excuse to dress the bigotry in. of course since he reads a thing on the internet that matches his bigotry this means he knows reality better the people who live in a place and better than what the real photos of markets shows, oh yes he knows even better what is in the minds. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/157 "2015-01-17T11:29:11Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So if you didn’t assert that women throw on headscarves while shopping due to religious pressure, what exactly did you mean here? he means whatever he needs to mean to justify his ideas and his hatreds. Nothing else. He knows in his heart that the religion is evil and we are as well, and he knows that the best political excuse for advancing his arguments is to pretend to care for the women, who are oppressed you know and must have the false consciousness, and are beaten every day when not having the acid thrown at us. It is a daily happening of course. especially in the no go zones. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/158 "2015-01-17T13:42:44Z")
I know, you are the victim, you poor thing. Muslims all over the world are rioting and killing over a cartoon as we speak, Muslim women are abused and harassed and being killed and raped by their fellow Muslims, and it is all the fault of those horrible white men. How dare white men mention the over the top rape culture prevelant among Muslims, and exemplified by the burqa and hijab. The 50,000 Shias killed in Pakistan. Yep white guys, our fault too. Quran 4:34, which commands husbands to beat disobedient wives, white men again. Boko Haram’s thousands of dead and their slaves, ISIS’s thousands of dead and their slaves, all the white mans fault. It could not possibly have anything to do with the fact that all of these criminals fetishize the behavior of a prophet who slaughtered people and kept and traded slaves, nor the fact that their religion gives permission and detailed instructions to it’s followers on the killing and the keeping of slaves. Nope, nothing to do with any of that. Always the white man’s fault. The white man is always drawing those cartoons and discussing Islam on the internet, after all. And the Jews targeted and killed by Muslims, that’s the fault of the white man too. It has nothing to do with the antisemitic hate speech from the Quran which is spread like a poison all over the Muslim world, nothing at all. The mass rapes in Tahrir square, of Muslim women and Western journalists. Yep you guessed it, white men, not the rapists’ own culture that grants women partial agency over their own bodies only if they obey strict codes of conduct based on Iron Age notions of modesty. And not Islam. Anything but Islam. Just keep accusing anyone who mentions any of these things of bigotry and hatred, it’s working out well for you so far to misconstrue opposition to a horrible set of ideas as hatred of people. So yeah, anyway, as I have shown, women in Pakistan wear head coverings to avoid being targetted and attacked by men who have been taught that women who don’t cover are “asking for it”, and the problem is far worse there than anywhere in the West, regardless of what lies the propaganda from the Muslim world spins about the decadent West, and regardless of the false equivilencies spun by apologists. When you attack people with accusations of bigotry for mentioning these things rather than respond to what is actually being said, it only makes more obvious your inability to grapple honestly with these issues. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/159 "2015-01-17T14:48:41Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I know, you are the victim, you poor thing. Muslims all over the world are rioting and killing over a cartoon as we speak, Muslim women are abused and harassed and being killed and raped by their fellow Muslims, and it is all the fault of those horrible white men. How dare white men mention the over the top rape culture prevelant among Muslims, and exemplified by the burqa and hijab. The 50,000 Shias killed in Pakistan. Yep white guys, our fault too. Quran 4:34, which commands husbands to beat disobedient wives, white men again. Boko Haram’s thousands of dead and their slaves, ISIS’s thousands of dead and their slaves, all the white mans fault. It could not possibly have anything to do with the fact that all of these criminals fetishize the behavior of a prophet who slaughtered people and kept and traded slaves, nor the fact that their religion gives permission and detailed instructions to it’s followers on the killing and the keeping of slaves. Nope, nothing to do with any of that. Always the white man’s fault. The white man is always drawing those cartoons and discussing Islam on the internet, after all. And the Jews targeted and killed by Muslims, that’s the fault of the white man too. It has nothing to do with the antisemitic hate speech from the Quran which is spread like a poison all over the Muslim world, nothing at all. The mass rapes in Tahrir square, of Muslim women and Western journalists. Yep you guessed it, white men, not the rapists’ own culture that grants women partial agency over their own bodies only if they obey strict codes of conduct based on Iron Age notions of modesty. And not Islam. Anything but Islam. Just keep accusing anyone who mentions any of these things of bigotry and hatred, it’s working out well for you so far to misconstrue opposition to a horrible set of ideas as hatred of people. > > So yeah, anyway, as I have shown, women in Pakistan wear head coverings to avoid being targetted and attacked by men who have been taught that women who don’t cover are “asking for it”, and the problem is far worse there than anywhere in the West, regardless of what lies the propaganda from the Muslim world spins about the decadent West, and regardless of the false equivilencies spun by apologists. When you attack people with accusations of bigotry for mentioning these things rather than respond to what is actually being said, it only makes more obvious your inability to grapple honestly with these issues. Wow. What a load of bigoted tripe. And wholly unnecessary: as I showed before, there’s some research showing that 78% of Pakistans who responded to a poll don’t think women ought to be able to make the decision for themselves about what constitutes an appropriate level of head-covering. There are serious problems is many Muslim countries that stem from religious interpretations, and I think it’s fair to say that these are worse than the similar problems that current stem from religious interpretations of Christianity (with some exceptions, viz., condom use in Africa, continuing Manifest Destiny ideas attached to Christianity). But when you launch into this sort of flailing screed against Islam in general, you make it impossible to address the real problems. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953/160 "2015-01-17T15:04:10Z")
Et voila, the perfect representation of the real motivations behind his posting, the grotesque hatred and bigotry. It was never any real concern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-france-have-a-double-standard-on-freedom-of-speech/709953.md?page=9)