# Does "Freedom of Religion" include "Freedom from Religion"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271 "2014-10-03T12:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/81 "2014-10-04T20:07:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Physicist Steven Hawking Claims ‘There Is No God,’](http://christiannews.net/2014/09/26/physicist-steven-hawking-claims-there-is-no-god-says-he-is-atheist/) > > I can’t imagine anyone claiming that Stephen Hawking is not a scientist. 😉 Well… At the point he made that declaration, he wasn’t. He was just a guy who happens to be a scientist during working hours…speaking outside of working hours. “I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.” Attributed to Richard Feynman, but also to Lee A. DuBridge. ---
**Author:** ![ernest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c67d28/32.png) [@ernest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ernest)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/82 "2014-10-04T20:11:07Z")
I appreciate every one views on things. Thats what make us unique and individuals. If we all believe the same things we would have nothing to talk about ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/83 "2014-10-04T20:12:53Z")
> [@ernest](#): > > I appreciate every one views on things. Thats what make us unique and individuals. If we all believe the same things we would have nothing to talk about Do you understand that some people do not believe in “Higher Powers”? ---
**Author:** ![ernest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c67d28/32.png) [@ernest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ernest)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/84 "2014-10-04T20:20:12Z")
Yes I understand some dont. but I’m not going to pretend that I grasp why. When god or higher power is more of a third party. physical,mental and spiritual. Just because we can’t see the wind doesn’t mean it isn’t hitting us sorta thing. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/85 "2014-10-04T21:34:22Z")
Let’s not hijack this thread with the ‘existence of God’ issue. Take it to a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/86 "2014-10-04T22:05:01Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We all knew Scalia was a tool. He may be well read, but intellectually honest he is not. Either he’s a liar or he’s stupid, take your pick. I’ve never really been sure which it was that so consistently put him on the wrong side of almost every issue. It could be both. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Scalia is not stupid. > Scalia is not an idiot. Scalia’s witty exchanges with the late William Safire on the language of some of his rulings suggest not just a certain level of intelligence but a lively sense of humor. OTOH, here we have a Supreme Court justice who openly professes to believe in a literal devil, presumably one with horns and a pitchfork – not the typical outlook of someone who would be considered a critical thinker. His defense in a TV interview of the Citizens United decision struck me as singularly shallow and uninspired. And his typically over-the-top dissent in [United States v Windsor](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/08/the-twilight-of-antonin-scalia/378884/) backfired on him in a big way by opening the floodgates to a sequence of state court decisions striking down same-sex marriage bans – a good thing, to be sure, but certainly not what Scalia intended. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/87 "2014-10-04T22:21:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You won’t find that kind of discussion in the Federalist Papers, because they came before the 1st Amendment. They were written in support of the Constitution as originally drafted in Philadelphia, without the Bill of Rights. In fact, at one point the Federalist Papers make the argument that since the Constitution only grants the federal government limited powers, there was no need for a Bill of Rights. That argument was in response to people like Mason of Virginia, who challenged the ratification of the Constitution because it lacked a Bill of Rights. > > To find drafters’ comments on the First Amendment, you would have to go to the Congressional Record for the 1st Congress, to see what was said about the First Amendment (actually the third proposed amendment in the original 12 amendments proposed by the 1st Congress). > > You would also have to review the debates in the state houses to determine what the elected reps who ratified the Amendment said about it. Whoa, _that_ doesn’t sound like a lot of work at all… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/88 "2014-10-04T22:32:44Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’ve never really been sure which it was that so consistently put him on the wrong side of almost every issue. It could be both. I’ve never understand the idea that some people have that there is an objectively definable “correct” view on constitutional issues. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/89 "2014-10-04T23:50:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve never understand the idea that some people have that there is an objectively definable “correct” view on constitutional issues. Of course there isn’t – at least in the vast majority of cases, sometimes not even those that are decided unanimously. I would have thought that my _ **obviously** _ figurative comment wouldn’t have been interpreted with such humorless literalism, but maybe it was my fault for assuming too much. What I’m saying is that there is a remarkable breadth of excellent and persuasive arguments against many or most of Scalia’s rulings that have been articulately raised by dissenting justices and other commentators. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/90 "2014-10-04T23:55:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Of course there isn’t – at least in the vast majority of cases, sometimes not even those that are decided unanimously. I would have thought that my _ **obviously** _ figurative comment wouldn’t have been interpreted with such humorless literalism, but maybe it was my fault for assuming too much. Eh. If you don’t write clearly, don’t blame the reader. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/91 "2014-10-05T00:16:48Z")
Fair enough, and not to digress, but there is a big difference between writing expressively to get an idea across and writing in bulletproof legalese in the expectation that it will be micro-analyzed by your enemies. “He’s always wrong about everything” is a very common metaphorical style. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/92 "2014-10-05T00:37:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I strongly disagree. Instead, I take issue with those who would misuse “ceremonial deism” as a fig-leaf to shoehorn religious beliefs into the public sector in violation of the 1st amendment. > > Personally, I might be willing to shrug off the ceremonial deism issue. I don’t really give two shits about “In God We Trust” on money. But it is being used as a lever to pry more concessions, such as open prayers before city council meetings (to which non-Christians are, somehow, rarely, if ever, invited) and other intrusions. > > If you could promise me that it would stop with a motto on coinage, I’d be delighted. I’m willing to surrender that limited amount of my rights. (Others aren’t, however.) But it doesn’t stop there. It keeps popping up, such as religious people demanding exemption from the Affordable Care Act, religious people insisting they can withhold medication from patients, and so on. Fighting ignorance. I’ve probably never mentioned this before, but the legal cases on exemptions from the ACA rest on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, as opposed to the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution. The Supreme Court’s standard for the First Amendment, if applied to those cases, would result in losses for the plaintiffs. They won because of the RFRA’s more protective stance towards religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/93 "2014-10-05T01:16:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not believing in God is a religious belief. That’s a non sequitur if I ever heard one. I don’t play tennis. Does that make me a tennis player? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/94 "2014-10-05T01:51:53Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Fair enough, and not to digress, but there is a big difference between writing expressively to get an idea across and writing in bulletproof legalese in the expectation that it will be micro-analyzed by your enemies. “He’s always wrong about everything” is a very common metaphorical style. Except you didn’t say “he’s always wrong about everything”. At any rate, it says a lot about this MB that someone can blithely declare that Scalia is stupid and hardly garner a comment. Or, that belief in “the devil” is somehow different than belief in God wrt evaluating a person’s intelligence: Obama believes in a literal God, presumably an old guy with a beard riding on a cloud. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/95 "2014-10-05T02:15:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Obama believes in a literal God, presumably an old guy with a beard riding on a cloud. And why do you make such a presumption? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/96 "2014-10-05T02:20:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And why do you make such a presumption? It’s sort of presumed that a Christian who recites the Nicene Creed as part of his worship isn’t fibbing. The conventional vision of God in contemporary society is of an old, bearded man. The “riding around on a cloud” is less likely to be a literal belief, but it’s nevertheless a common image. I don’t his presumption is that far-fetched, and I think it’s absolutely reasonable to call someone out on thinking that belief in the devil is less reasonable than belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/97 "2014-10-05T02:30:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And why do you make such a presumption? I wouldn’t. If you had followed the discussion, you would have seen that I was offering that as a contrast to: > [@wolfpup](#): > > here we have a Supreme Court justice who openly professes to believe in a literal devil, presumably one with horns and a pitchfork – not the typical outlook of someone who would be considered a critical thinker ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/98 "2014-10-05T02:50:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wouldn’t. If you had followed the discussion, you would have seen that I was offering that as a contrast to: **Czarcasm** : That post was overly snarky. Let me rephrase to say: I should point out that I was responding to an earlier post… ---
**Author:** ![sooku](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sooku](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sooku)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/99 "2014-10-05T03:04:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > "\*\*\*Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble… It does not say that Congress may not be guided by considerations of religion, or that individual members of Congress may not consult their private conscience when voting on legislation. Indeed, by the literal language, Congress may make laws respecting RELIGION in general, as long as it’s not aimed at an establishment of religion, and does not impact or constrain the exercise of religion in general. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271/100 "2014-10-05T03:15:41Z")
> [@sooku](#): > > It does not say that Congress may not be guided by considerations of religion, or that individual members of Congress may not consult their private conscience when voting on legislation. Indeed, by the literal language, Congress may make laws respecting RELIGION in general, as long as it’s not aimed at an establishment of religion, and does not impact or constrain the exercise of religion in general. What is “religion in general”, and how would one go about making a law respecting it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-freedom-of-religion-include-freedom-from-religion/700271.md?page=6)