# Does gay people "taking possession" of offensive & disparaging terms render them less powerful? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546 "2015-01-11T16:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/1 "2015-01-11T16:41:44Z")
[In this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=745515) a question comes as to the use of the term “dyke” being effectively derogatory. In looking at the online LGBT landscape you often seen gay people self identifying as “dykes” and “queers” (mostly in an activist political context) and other terms intended to be insulting or disparaging as pride terms. The explanation I’ve seen is that that by taking possession of these terms you empower them as powerful affirmative terms vs slang or disparaging terms? In practice has this worked or is it working ? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/2 "2015-01-11T17:02:36Z")
Personally, I don’t think it works; same with blacks using the n-word. In short, I don’t see a decline in the words as stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/3 "2015-01-11T18:08:07Z")
I think 99+% of the time I’ve heard people say “dyke” or “queer”, it’s been in nonderogatory. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/4 "2015-01-11T19:08:25Z")
I doubt that those who wish to insult gay people care what terms gay people use to refer to themselves. The term “gay” itself is still used in a derogatory manner (“Dude, that is so gay!”) even though it’s widely accepted as a neutral or positive term for homosexuals. I’m not offended by, say, comedian Lea DeLaria referring to herself as “a big dyke”, but every time I’ve ever personally been called a dyke it was by a straight person who clearly meant it as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/5 "2015-01-11T19:24:12Z")
It can work. It isn’t a guaranteed tactic, but it sometimes reduces the biting impact of a word. I remember an attempt, in the 70s, for police departments to adopt pigs, to try to reduce the power of that anti-police epithet. Didn’t work. On the other hand, the “I’m Queer” trope seems to have helped take some of the sting out of that word. It helps that “queer” in itself isn’t so hurtful a thing. Most of us here are pretty doggone eccentric! ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/6 "2015-01-11T19:28:36Z")
I don’t like “queer” and never have. It gives straight people the idea they can start using it because they’re “not homophobic.” Plus I just don’t like the word at all. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/7 "2015-01-11T20:27:33Z")
The culture mavens tried for at least three generations to get rid of the F word, without much success. A while back, African-American activists decreed that “negro” should no longer be used, and everyone should say “colored”. So people stopped telling negro jokes, and started telling colored jokes. A couple of decades later, it was decreed that “colored” was double-plus-ungood, and “black” was beautiful. So people stopped telling colored jokes, and started telling black jokes. A couple of decades later, it was decreed that “black” was double-plus-ungood, and everyone should say “African-American”. This seems to have worked, mainly because “African-American” is too cumbersome to mean anything. In my opinion, the “take possession of the word” strategy is more likely to be successful than the censorship strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/8 "2015-01-11T21:17:13Z")
I’ve worked with women who referred to themselves as “dykes” without any trace of irony or self-deprecation. I wouldn’t call them that _myself_, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/9 "2015-01-12T13:57:43Z")
IMO, “queer” is very different from, “dyke”, or, “faggot”. “Queer”, is the settled-on term to mean, “not straight.” Rather than saying, “that neighborhood is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, and transsexual friendly,” one can say, “that neighborhood’s queer-friendly.” “Gay-friendly,” or “lesbian-friendly,” may not mean the same thing as “queer-friendly,” in the context of bars or hair salons, for example. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/10 "2015-01-12T20:20:13Z")
But how much of “dyke” and “queer” fell off because of reclaiming and how much is due to a general attitude shift? Do we have equivalent words that were “banned” instead for comparison? It seems to me that the words that have retained their power, like “faggot” and “nigger” also were attempted to be reclaimed. And “dyke” is still pretty powerful when said by a non-lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/11 "2015-01-12T21:52:54Z")
If I’m called “queer” by someone, and it’s undeniably meant as an insult, my response would be “Damn straight!” ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/12 "2015-01-13T00:45:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Personally, I don’t think it works; same with blacks using the n-word. In short, I don’t see a decline in the words as stereotypes. I think this is an interesting example, though. While the word hasn’t been rendered neutral of meaningless, its “reclamation” by the black community has meant that its negative use has gotten a lot more limited, I think. Using that word used tomerely connote somebody was an ordinary, casual racist; now it signifies a pretty severe bigot. In some sense, I think that’s progress. Likewise, the word faggot. It was common enough once that Eddie Murphy casually (and heavily) used it in his set. Nowadays, that word’s use is pretty limited to more severe homophobes. It’s still a powerful word (because anything that clearly says “I hate who you are” will be), but I think the reclation by the LGBT community has rendered it much less common. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/13 "2015-01-13T01:55:51Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > I think this is an interesting example, though. While the word hasn’t been rendered neutral of meaningless, its “reclamation” by the black community has meant that its negative use has gotten a lot more limited, I think. > > Using that word used tomerely connote somebody was an ordinary, casual racist; now it signifies a pretty severe bigot. That’s the opposite of what reclaiming slurs is supposed to do, though. If the “N-word” is seen as _more_ offensive now than in the past, it obviously hasn’t been rendered _less_ powerful or insulting by being used by African-Americans. I’m reluctant to even type it out! I actually don’t think the reclaiming of this term by (some) African-Americans has anything to do with it being considered extremely offensive when used by people who _aren’t_ African-American. If it’s considered less acceptable now than in the past I’d say the more likely explanation is that this is because _racism_ is less acceptable now. > [@](#): > > Likewise, the word faggot. It was common enough once that Eddie Murphy casually (and heavily) used it in his set. Nowadays, that word’s use is pretty limited to more severe homophobes. It’s still a powerful word (because anything that clearly says “I hate who you are” will be), but I think the reclation by the LGBT community has rendered it much less common. Again, this looks like evidence that it’s now less acceptable to make fun of gay people than it was in the past, not that “faggot” is no longer considered insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/14 "2015-01-13T03:24:30Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > The culture mavens tried for at least three generations to get rid of the F word, without much success. > > A while back, African-American activists decreed that “negro” should no longer be used, and everyone should say “colored”. So people stopped telling negro jokes, and started telling colored jokes. > > A couple of decades later, it was decreed that “colored” was double-plus-ungood, and “black” was beautiful. So people stopped telling colored jokes, and started telling black jokes. > > A couple of decades later, it was decreed that “black” was double-plus-ungood, and everyone should say “African-American”. This seems to have worked, mainly because “African-American” is too cumbersome to mean anything. > > In my opinion, the “take possession of the word” strategy is more likely to be successful than the censorship strategy. You missed that month or two when “Afro-American” was approved. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/15 "2015-01-13T20:41:02Z")
I remember back in the '60s, when the word “gay” itself was non-mainstream, and the older gay people cautioned us about its use. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/16 "2015-01-15T19:00:09Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > IMO, “queer” is very different from, “dyke”, or, “faggot”. “Queer”, is the settled-on term to mean, “not straight.” Rather than saying, “that neighborhood is lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, and transsexual friendly,” one can say, “that neighborhood’s queer-friendly.” “Gay-friendly,” or “lesbian-friendly,” may not mean the same thing as “queer-friendly,” in the context of bars or hair salons, for example. But “queer” by itself fails as a transgender descriptor, because many transgender people are straight. Hence the term “genderqueer.” The largest battle in the transgender community is over the word “tranny.” The tide seems to be that it’s an epithet\*, and those still using it are largely drag queens or crossdressers, or those who have been in the community more than 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/17 "2015-01-15T19:12:04Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t like “queer” and never have. It gives straight people the idea they can start using it because they’re “not homophobic.” Plus I just don’t like the word at all. I don’t like “straight.” It suggests that non-heterosexuals are “bent,” deviant, abnormal. Also that heterosexuality is plain, boring. Neither of these is accurate in my view. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/18 "2015-01-15T19:53:09Z")
So, who then gets to decide if a term is pejorative or offensive? The user or the person it’s being applied to? Let us say the user means nothing derogatory. He uses “Negro”, for example. If he is asked by the receiver to no longer use that term as they consider it pejorative or offensive- are they within their rights? Should he not long use that term (in general usage)? Or can he say “it’s perfectly legitimate\* and I dont mean it to be pejorative or offensive, so I will continue using it.”? \*(see _United Negro College Fund_) ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/19 "2015-01-15T23:20:01Z")
It’s all fun and games when folks are calling themselves fags, homos, queers and whatever else in the spirit of stealing the power of the words. But in my experience it all falls apart when someone from the outside crowd levels one of the words in question at a target, even as a clumsy jest. Point being, it’s not the word itself that has the power, it’s the spirit of the delivery. I personally consider ‘breeder’ to be more silly than offensive, but if the right person were to say it to me in the right way the full hostile intent of the speaker would be crystal clear. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/20 "2015-01-16T01:25:33Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > But “queer” by itself fails as a transgender descriptor, because many transgender people are straight. Hence the term “genderqueer.” In Ann Arbor, many transgendered people consider themselves members of the “Queer Community.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546.md?page=2)