# Does gay people "taking possession" of offensive & disparaging terms render them less powerful? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546 "2015-01-11T16:41:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/21 "2015-01-16T01:50:24Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > That’s the opposite of what reclaiming slurs is supposed to do, though. If the “N-word” is seen as _more_ offensive now than in the past, it obviously hasn’t been rendered _less_ powerful or insulting by being used by African-Americans. I’m reluctant to even type it out! I disagree. If it’s seen as more offensive, that means black people have more power to wield (soft power to be sure) against those who use the word. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/22 "2015-01-16T01:51:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, who then gets to decide if a term is pejorative or offensive? The user or the person it’s being applied to? > > Let us say the user means nothing derogatory. He uses “Negro”, for example. If he is asked by the receiver to no longer use that term as they consider it pejorative or offensive- are they within their rights? Should he not long use that term (in general usage)? Or can he say “it’s perfectly legitimate\* and I dont mean it to be pejorative or offensive, so I will continue using it.”? > > \*(see _United Negro College Fund_) The person is within their rights to say that the word hurts their feelings, and the user of the word is within his rights to keep using the word. The question is, who’s the asshole? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/23 "2015-01-16T19:24:20Z")
You have to go by numbers of the affected persons and their offense to it to decide if it’s offensive. I take offense at the pejorative “cracker”, yet a large majority of Americans find it from inoffensive to silly. Therefore, although I don’t like it, I realize that most people don’t care about it either, and so I try not to let it bother me. “Transgender” and “transsexual” are factual descriptions which were not created with a pejorative intent. Nor are they _normally_ used as an insult or attack. “Tranny” has become insulting to many transgender persons because it carries an implication that it refers to a drag queen, crossdresser, or prostitute. “Shemale” (sometimes “she-male”) at one time was not as offensive as it was today (such as the biography of Cocchinelle, which was titled such), but rapidly became associated with pre-op prostitutes, and thus now is seen as offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/24 "2015-01-17T02:04:22Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I disagree. If it’s seen as more offensive, that means black people have more power to wield (soft power to be sure) against those who use the word. I don’t know what you’re disagreeing with, because that’s basically what I just said…and the opposite of what “reclaiming” slurs was supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/25 "2015-01-17T04:29:19Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > But “queer” by itself fails as a transgender descriptor, because many transgender people are straight. Hence the term “genderqueer.” > . And it’s not just Ann Arbor: [Queer - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer) In the future, if you are going to correct me, will you please grant me the courtesy of actually being correct? It’s irritating to have to cite shit I got right the first time. Thx. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/26 "2015-01-17T04:45:41Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > And it’s not just Ann Arbor: [Queer - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer) > > In the future, if you are going to correct me, will you please grant me the courtesy of actually being correct? It’s irritating to have to cite shit I got right the first time. Thx. I didn’t say you were wrong, I said that “queer” by itself fails. Genderqueer is more correct, but I agree it’s shortened to queer. I was expanding upon your answer, not rebutting it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/27 "2015-01-17T14:11:16Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t know what you’re disagreeing with, because that’s basically what I just said…and the opposite of what “reclaiming” slurs was supposed to do. I guess I was thrown off because you opened up with a remark that “[Racial slurs being used less, and use of slurs connoting more severe bigotry than before] is the opposite of what “reclaiming” slurs was supposed to do.” I was explaining that I disagree with that statement–that I think this is exactly (part of) what the reclaiming is supposed to achieve, and that it works, since it means (as you’ve agreed) the minority in question now has more social power to work with. After what you just said, on re-reading the body of your post, I can see that we’re in substantial agreement. But I’d suggest, then, that you’re also in substantial agreement with **typoink** as well. ETA: Though I said it looks like we’re in substantial agreement, I’d still disagree it’s the opposite of what reclaiming was supposed to do. Reclaiming means “it’s our word now,” which means if you (not us) use it, you’re _even worse_ than people who used to use it before we staked our claim on it. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/28 "2015-01-17T19:26:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > ETA: Though I said it looks like we’re in substantial agreement, I’d still disagree it’s the opposite of what reclaiming was supposed to do. Reclaiming means “it’s our word now,” which means if you (not us) use it, you’re _even worse_ than people who used to use it before we staked our claim on it. Yep, Frylock did a good job of elucidating what I meant. On further reflection, though, I think there’s another element. Reclaimed words don’t become “powerless,” but there is an important shift in meaning. I think both the n-word and f-word are cases where those words used to trigger fear but now are at least as likely to trigger anger and indignation. That is, I think, a meaningful change and I do think the reclamation by the communities is partly responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/29 "2015-01-17T19:31:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Though I said it looks like we’re in substantial agreement, I’d still disagree it’s the opposite of what reclaiming was supposed to do. Reclaiming means “it’s our word now,” which means if you (not us) use it, you’re _even worse_ than people who used to use it before we staked our claim on it. No, that’s not what reclaiming words means or what it’s supposed to do. It’s supposed to render previously derogatory terms inoffensive, the idea being that if there’s nothing wrong with being X (black, gay, etc.) then there should be nothing wrong with a word that means X. Advocates of reclaiming say that people who are X should embrace these terms with pride. This will cause them to lose power as insults, because people who are X won’t get upset when called these names anymore. There are a number of terms (including “black” and “gay”) that were once considered derogatory, were embraced by the group they described, and came to be accepted as a standard, neutral term for that group. However, if a word once considered a derogatory term for group X instead comes to be seen as even _more_ offensive than before when used by people who are not X, that means the word has gained rather than lost power as an insult. If this occurs because of attempts to reclaim the word by group X (which you and **typoink** seem to believe) then this reclaiming thing has badly backfired. Reclaiming derogatory terms wasn’t intended to make it _easier_ for others to hurt or offend members of group X by using these words against them. Again though, I don’t buy that attempts to reclaim derogatory terms has actually had such an effect. I think it’s even less acceptable for white people to use “the N-word” now than it was in the past because _racism_ is less acceptable now, not because the word has been tossed around pretty casually by some popular black entertainers. But either way the word obviously hasn’t been rendered powerless, as evidenced by the fact that people in this thread (including me) have been avoiding spelling it out as if it were Lord Voldemort’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/30 "2015-01-17T20:02:21Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > Reclaimed words don’t become “powerless,” but there is an important shift in meaning. I think both the n-word and f-word are cases where those words used to trigger fear but now are at least as likely to trigger anger and indignation. That is, I think, a meaningful change and I do think the reclamation by the communities is partly responsible. That’s not what the OP was asking, though. He asked if reclaiming disparaging terms renders them less powerful as insults or can transform them into affirmative terms. There are cases where this has happened, but you’re arguing that attempts to reclaim certain slurs has produced the opposite of the intended effect and made them even more inflammatory. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/31 "2015-01-17T21:03:40Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > No, that’s not what reclaiming words means or what it’s supposed to do. It’s supposed to render previously derogatory terms inoffensive, How do you know this? > [@](#): > > the idea being that if there’s nothing wrong with being X (black, gay, etc.) then there should be nothing wrong with a word that means X. Advocates of reclaiming say that people who are X should embrace these terms with pride. This will cause them to lose power as insults, **because people who are X won’t get upset when called these names anymore.** Can you provide a quotation or two substantiating this? Myself, I’m just working from my personal and professional familiarity with people belonging to populations that reclaim derogatory terms. My experience is, in that sense, anecdotal. What is it you’re relying on? > [@](#): > > There are a number of terms (including “black” and “gay”) that were once considered derogatory, were embraced by the group they described, and came to be accepted as a standard, neutral term for that group. > > However, if a word once considered a derogatory term for group X instead comes to be seen as even _more_ offensive than before when used by people who are not X, that means the word has gained rather than lost power as an insult. If this occurs because of attempts to reclaim the word by group X (which you and **typoink** seem to believe) then this reclaiming thing has badly backfired. But above you explicitly agreed with me that in such cases, the minority population in question has gained social power as a result. That doesn’t sound like “backfiring” to me. I’m confused. > [@](#): > > Reclaiming derogatory terms wasn’t intended to make it _easier_ for others to hurt or offend members of group X by using these words against them. Who said anything about it being easier to hurt them using slurs? What I have said is that the social group has gained power, not because the word has become more hurtful, but because the word makes you look like an asshole when you use it. > [@](#): > > Again though, I don’t buy that attempts to reclaim derogatory terms has actually had such an effect. I think it’s even less acceptable for white people to use “the N-word” now than it was in the past because _racism_ is less acceptable now, not because the word has been tossed around pretty casually by some popular black entertainers. But either way the word obviously hasn’t been rendered powerless, as evidenced by the fact that people in this thread (including me) have been avoiding spelling it out as if it were Lord Voldemort’s name. I also wouln’t say that reclaiming the word has “caused” it to be that people who use the word as a slur now look worse. That was already happening, for other reasons. The reclaiming of the word (and the concomitant power gain) comes in the wake of that phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/32 "2015-01-17T21:22:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Can you provide a quotation or two substantiating this? Myself, I’m just working from my personal and professional familiarity with people belonging to populations that reclaim derogatory terms. My experience is, in that sense, anecdotal. What is it you’re relying on? Well, for starters it’s the topic of this thread. I am currently dealing with what is probably carpal tunnel syndrome, and it’s taken kind of a lot out of me to type as much here as I already have. And since I’m not the OP, I don’t feel it’s really my responsibility to spend my weekend looking up quotes to support the basic premise of this thread. Take it up with **astro** if you need cites. > [@](#): > > But above you explicitly agreed with me that in such cases, the minority population in question has gained social power as a result. That doesn’t sound like “backfiring” to me. I’m confused. I’ve already explained myself to you in as simple and straightforward a manner as I can. If you’re still confused then I guess that’s just too bad. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/33 "2015-01-17T21:26:04Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I don’t like “straight.” It suggests that non-heterosexuals are “bent,” deviant, abnormal. Also that heterosexuality is plain, boring. Neither of these is accurate in my view. I can see that. Straight was probably used somewhat pejoratively in the beginning, but like gay, didn’t offend enough people to be a big deal, so it’s what we’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/34 "2015-01-17T21:53:02Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Well, for starters it’s the topic of this thread. I am currently dealing with what is probably carpal tunnel syndrome, and it’s taken kind of a lot out of me to type as much here as I already have. And since I’m not the OP, I don’t feel it’s really my responsibility to spend my weekend looking up quotes to support the basic premise of this thread. Take it up with **astro** if you need cites. Okay, my apologies, I had thought you were making claims rather than just explicating the OP. That’s on me. I do wonder where the OP got his/her idea from. > [@](#): > > I’ve already explained myself to you in as simple and straightforward a manner as I can. If you’re still confused then I guess that’s just too bad. Haha okay you magnificent person. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546/35 "2015-01-18T00:56:19Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > That’s not what the OP was asking, though. He asked if reclaiming disparaging terms renders them less powerful as insults or can transform them into affirmative terms. There are cases where this has happened, but you’re arguing that attempts to reclaim certain slurs has produced the opposite of the intended effect and made them even more inflammatory. Actually, no. I think provoking a response of anger or indignation IS a reduction in power vs being able to provoke fear of personal safety. I think the reclaiming use of the f-word within LGBT communities HAS had an impact on that, although, of course, increasing social acceptance has as well. There’s no way to make somebody saying, say, the f-word completely inoffensive because that word choice has hate at it’s _core_. Some words like “gay” or “queer” have been very effectively reclaimed because they have been reused as somewhat generic descriptors. Some words have a bigger uphill battle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-gay-people-taking-possession-of-offensive-disparaging-terms-render-them-less-powerful/709546.md?page=1)