# Does Germaine Greer's non-acceptance of trans women damage her historic legacy as Feminist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693 "2015-10-25T03:18:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/41 "2015-10-26T18:27:52Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I guess I’m another terrible liberal, because before reading this thread I would’ve guessed that “Germaine Greer” was the name of a football player. So, two white feminist icons add up to one black male athletic icon? Rosie the Riveter + Germaine Greer = Rosey Greer How far we still have to go. I would have said an old Hollywood movie star. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/42 "2015-10-26T18:30:51Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I would have said an old Hollywood movie star.[/SIZE] Perhaps you’re thinking of Greer Garson? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/43 "2015-10-26T19:42:38Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Elizabeth Cady Stanton opposed the Fifteenth Amendment because it didn’t give women the right to vote, only men. She had worked as an abolitionist for many years. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/44 "2015-10-26T21:48:51Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Exactly. And it wasn’t the first, or the last, time in History that women’s allies have thrown them under the bus or deprioritized them because some other civil rights were “more important.” Reproductive rights are eroding, we’ve made no progress on legislating a paid maternity/paternity leave requirement, but hey, we got marriage equality. And, frankly, we often do it to ourselves. (I think marriage equality is great. And as proof of “doing it to ourselves” I’ve had more conversations about the importance of marriage equality in the past five years than I’ve had on either reproductive rights or maternity leave). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/45 "2015-10-26T22:27:12Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And it wasn’t the first, or the last, time in History that women’s allies have thrown them under the bus or deprioritized them because some other civil rights were “more important.” Most abolitionists were never particularly “women’s allies.” Even the great Frederick Douglass needed considerable convincing (largely by ECS). Similarly, plenty of suffragists and proto-feminists, even among those who had been abolitionists, were hostile to advancing black (men’s) civil rights ‘past’ those of white women. > [@Elizabeth Cady Stanton](#): > > What will we and our daughters suffer if these degraded black men are allowed to have the rights that would make them even worse than our Saxon fathers? Frances Willard founded the National Council of Women. > [@Frances Willard](#): > > Alien illiterates rule our cities today; the saloon is their palace, and the toddy stick their scepter. The colored race multiplies like the locusts of Egypt. Cary Chapman Catt founded the League of Women Voters. > [@Cary Chapman Catt](#): > > White supremacy will be strengthened, not weakened, by women’s suffrage. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/46 "2015-10-26T22:42:00Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And it wasn’t the first, or the last, time in History that women’s allies have thrown them under the bus or deprioritized them because some other civil rights were “more important.” Reproductive rights are eroding, we’ve made no progress on legislating a paid maternity/paternity leave requirement, but hey, we got marriage equality. And, frankly, we often do it to ourselves. > > (I think marriage equality is great. And as proof of “doing it to ourselves” I’ve had more conversations about the importance of marriage equality in the past five years than I’ve had on either reproductive rights or maternity leave). You could also interpret it as Stanton trying to throw black people under the bus because she thought women’s civil rights were “more important”. Regarding present-day America: we got marriage equality amazingly fast once everyone realized that _it doesn’t cost any money!_ Trans acceptance will probably follow, as that’s pretty cheap too. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/47 "2015-10-26T22:42:02Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Most abolitionists were never particularly “women’s allies.” Even the great Frederick Douglass needed considerable convincing (largely by ECS). > > Similarly, plenty of suffragists and proto-feminists, even among those who had been abolitionists, were hostile to advancing black (men’s) civil rights ‘past’ those of white women. > > Frances Willard founded the National Council of Women. > Cary Chapman Catt founded the League of Women Voters. Yep, its been a historical issue. (I probably shouldn’t have used allies). There SHOULD BE plenty of civil rights to go around for everyone. But somehow, we never quite get to the “people are worth of respect and everyone should get treated fairly” and instead dole out rights like they are a scarce resource. Which creates the early pull between feminists and black men or the later pull between mainstream feminists and the “lavender menace” (Betty Friedan, IIRC), or todays topic of transwomen and ciswomen. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/48 "2015-10-26T22:45:26Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > You could also interpret it as Stanton trying to throw black people under the bus because she thought women’s civil rights were “more important”. > > Regarding present-day America: we got marriage equality amazingly fast once everyone realized that _it doesn’t cost any money!_ Trans acceptance will probably follow, as that’s pretty cheap too. She thought that a united front - getting voting rights for all adults, was “more important.” (And I think she was right, although pragmatically, it wouldn’t have passed then, but they could get black men the vote. Women had to wait another 50 years or so. But then again, women weren’t kept from the polls the way African Americans were - once women got the vote, white women could exercise it. The same cannot be said for the 14th amendment, which really did not become effective for nearly 100 years (and arguably, isn’t effective now)). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/49 "2015-10-27T00:03:16Z")
Elizabeth Cady Stanton got cat-called by one too many Black guys. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/50 "2015-10-27T00:44:08Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > She thought that a united front - getting voting rights for all adults, was “more important.” > > (And I think she was right, although pragmatically, it wouldn’t have passed then, but they could get black men the vote… That means she was wrong. Not wrong to keep advocating for women, not wrong for declining to make others’ priorities hers, but wrong for _opposing_ a stroke for justice in American history. The Fourteenth was a little more complex than just ending slavery, but the Fifteenth was very simple. It did not address all the ways that the right to vote could be and was denied to various kinds of Americans, but the step it took was unequivocally a good one, a step toward justice. Anyone who opposed it for any reason would have been wrong. Just as, say, a (brave) nascent gay-rights activist would have been wrong to oppose the first American marriage equality struggle, the one that overturned anti-miscegenation laws, for failing to address gay marriage. For the record, women at the time did have the right to vote in several states and territories, or jurisdictions thereof–and the _overall_ women’s voting cohort was enlarged by the Fifteenth Amendment, in that non-white women were added in those jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/51 "2015-10-27T01:08:06Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Perhaps you’re thinking of Greer Garson? Yes! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/52 "2015-10-27T02:08:36Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > _She has written something before about her love for young boys whose sperm flow like tapwater._ > She’s a pedophile. But because she’s an iconic hero of the left, we give her a pass. By definition, _pedophile_ refers to pre-puberty children. If their sperm is flowing like tapwater, they are clearly past puberty. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/53 "2015-10-27T02:27:34Z")
I never heard of her until this thread. I’ve just read her wiki, and this issue should be a small drop in an entire pool of troubling things she’s said. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/54 "2015-10-27T02:36:53Z")
I’m kind of gobsmacked at the number of people in this thread who’ve never heard of Germaine Greer. This is probably influenced to some extent by the fact that she comes from my hometown, but still - she’s on the BBC and writing articles in newspapers pretty regularly; still publishing after a 40-plus year career; basically, in my world I’d consider her a Name on a level with, say, Richard Dawkins (and actually remarkably similar in personality now I come to think about it) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/55 "2015-10-27T02:40:37Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > _“I’m getting a bit old for all this,” she added. “I’m 76, I don’t want to go down there and be screamed at and have things thrown at me. Bugger it.”_ From what she uses as an insult, she’s obviously anti-gay, too. And probably bigoted against Bulgarians, as well. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/56 "2015-10-27T04:01:32Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > in my world I’d consider her a Name on a level with, say, Richard Dawkins (and actually remarkably similar in personality now I come to think about it) Isn’t he a game show host? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/57 "2015-10-27T09:47:42Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Isn’t he a game show host? Don’t make me hurt you… :stern face: ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/58 "2015-10-27T10:55:13Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I’m kind of gobsmacked at the number of people in this thread who’ve never heard of Germaine Greer. This is probably influenced to some extent by the fact that she comes from my hometown, but still - she’s on the BBC and writing articles in newspapers pretty regularly; still publishing after a 40-plus year career; basically, in my world I’d consider her a Name on a level with, say, Richard Dawkins (and actually remarkably similar in personality now I come to think about it) She rose up with a group of post-war Australian intellectuals in the [Sydney Push](https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/11380), whose members emigrated to London and NYC to hit the big time in the '60s. One of their best achievements was the London version of Oz underground magazine. The authorities suppressed it on the grounds that it would corrupt kids, so the editors ran an edition entirely written by kids, which proved to be dirtier than anything the grownups could have imagined. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/59 "2015-10-27T11:32:52Z")
I’ve always found Germaine Greer annoying. I agree with some things she’s said and recognize her significance in the feminist movement while disagreeing with other things she’s said and not considering her to be representative of all feminists everywhere. I am disappointed that she has chosen to take this odd (and IMO objectionable) position regarding transexuals but it doesn’t destroy my opinion of her because it was never particularly high to begin with. And I’m also disappointed, but not particularly surprised, by the “This just goes to show how all leftists/feminists are all wrong in some way” comments. She’s one person with a long history of saying controversial things, not the incarnate avatar of Leftist Thought. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693/60 "2015-10-27T20:05:26Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > I think it mars her legacy. This will barely register in her legacy. Greer is a hundred thousand years old and old people say dumb, cranky things. It’s how they are. Greer has been working continuously but hasn’t really been a super important idea-creator in at least 20 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-germaine-greers-non-acceptance-of-trans-women-damage-her-historic-legacy-as-feminist/735693.md?page=4)