# Does god exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2003, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933 "2003-06-01T10:48:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sickboy51](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sickboy51](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sickboy51)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/41 "2003-06-05T19:43:51Z")
Let me quote this sentence from one of your posts: “Logic and words aren’t the only medium for understanding, and sometimes not the best one” I totally agree, Reason is not the only path to knowledege, ro so I beleive. Reason is a very useful tool for some things, i.e. building a motor, programming software… but I think there are other means to knowledege, read about oriental releigions (such as taoism) to know more. When the starter of this trhead asked if there was a God, I assumed that he/she referred to an antropomorphic God, as usual. Now I think maybe I made a mistake here. You see, modern physics say that all is energy, say, substance is a form of energy (seeing the results of an atomic explosion, I think I must agree), and there is this principle that tells energy can´t be created or destroyed, it transformates. So the whole universe could be seen as a unique mass of energy and we´re part of it. Allright I can beleive so. In some way, the universe itself (and us inside) can be considered as a God (a superior form of existance… well, the universe DOES exist, isn´t it?). Well, if you want to call the universe “God”, it´s fine with me. But I don´t beleive the universe is omniscent, no Bible´s god for me. Of course, I show no disrespect for your beliefs (nor for anybody´s else), do not think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Vote\_Bakunin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ce7236/32.png) [@Vote\_Bakunin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vote_Bakunin)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/42 "2003-06-07T19:13:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fessie \* > \*\*Oh, goodie, this conversation got interesting after all 🙂 > > I’m intrigued that people disputed the soul - that’s not a response I expected. I’ve always been aware of my own soul so I can’t imagine not living with that knowledge. > > In fact, I can’t even understand the basis on which such a claim would be disputed. I am aware of having an ego, desires that I act upon because of their relation to the public arena and my continued existence therein. And I’m also aware of deeper desires and drives, which have nothing to do with my membership in society yet also speak of me and my connection to the world. > > To not have a soul? To never feel the pain of simple existence, or longings that have no object? You mean you people don’t get an answer when you pray? You’re not driven by mechanisms beyond your physical/emotional existence? You’ve never connected with a zing of truth, felt a shudder in your solar plexis that answered, or been comforted by a sense of presence when you could have been afraid? You’ve never let go of your ego? Frankly that baffles me. > > **VoteBaukin** I think the Judeo/Christian God is just a way of describing the experience, so disputing that legend has nothing to do with the existence of God. Same with the Tao, the Koran, the Talmud & whatever else. Aren’t they all a product of their society’s concerns, a way of channeling the spiritual experience to ensure the survival of a people? I thought we were just using the term “God” as shorthand. > > \*\* You are quite right in what you say, fessie. I’m pretty sure we have a soul, if at no more a level than some force which moves the body around in other than robotic fashion and causes deliberations outside instinct and convention. Neither am I using a test of the Scriptures as proof of existence of God. But if you are starting from the standpoint of making your litmus test proof of the existence of a semitic model of God (i.e. you’re not open to revealation that it is a Hutu god that is the One True God) then your first point of investigation is not in proof of some greater good or evil nor in the nebulous ‘miracle of nature’ or ‘wonder of science’ but in the texts that have been given for instruction and guidance to the true path. If you’re coming at your belief in a god of indeterminate origin, unknown purpose and doubtful interest in your doings, then you don’t need to know it is Gospel. You need only to know the extent to which you can know this god, and how important it is to know Him or Her. Certainly you shouldn’t be charging off insisting in enshrining precepts in legislation or punishing transgressors unless you are sure that the instruction you are taking is sound. A god of nature by contrast might only be telling you to cut the length of your showers and take your own bags when you go shopping. ---
**Author:** ![ajfrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ajfrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajfrod)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/43 "2003-06-08T13:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*My personal experience leads me to believe that the Gods do exist. But as has been pointed out, the evidence is purely subjective, which does not count as “proof.” However, many people across many cultures and throughout time have had similar experiences. Given the wide variety and cross-cultural dimension of these experiences, they do not seem to be a mental aberation. > > I count this as indirect evidence for proof of the existence of the Gods. \*\* The experiences across different cultures are due to science. When something unusual happens it is attributed to god. ---
**Author:** ![ElbaliavanU](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@ElbaliavanU](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElbaliavanU)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/44 "2003-06-08T18:35:30Z")
There is no proof that God exists. That’s where faith comes in. Without faith, we’d all be doomed to hell. With proof, we would all believe it as fact. God gave us the free will to believe in Him, so go exercise your free will! There will be a time when everyone believes in Him. For some, it will just be too late… Anyone ever hear of the band One Bad Pig? Well heres the chorus from one of their songs… _Let’s be frank Let’s talk straight Won’t believe 'til they shut hell’s gate_ That’s what I mean by being to late. And believe me, you’ll wish you believed. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/45 "2003-06-08T18:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no proof that God exists. That’s where faith comes in. Without faith, we’d all be doomed to hell. With proof, we would all believe it as fact. God gave us the free will to believe in Him, so go exercise your free will! I have faith that the only hell to which we can be doomed is the hell to which we doom ourselves by believing things we do not know and ceasing to experience and to engage in inquiry. Find God in yourself. She is there. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/46 "2003-06-08T19:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ajfrod \* > \*\*The experiences across different cultures are due to science. > When something unusual happens it is attributed to god. \*\* Exactly how do you show that people who, in a cross-cultural context, have similar experiences about “God” or “the Gods” and that this is due to science? I’m not following your logic on this. Please explain it. ---
**Author:** ![sickboy51](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sickboy51](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sickboy51)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/47 "2003-06-08T22:12:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \* > \*\* > There will be a time when everyone believes in Him. For some, it will just be too late… > > (…) > > That’s what I mean by being to late. And believe me, you’ll wish you believed. \*\* That´s a threat? ---
**Author:** ![ajfrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ajfrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajfrod)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/48 "2003-06-11T11:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*Exactly how do you show that people who, in a cross-cultural context, have similar experiences about “God” or “the Gods” and that this is due to science? I’m not following your logic on this. Please explain it. \*\* When something unusual happens. We think it is because of god. When there there no scientific explanation or we can’t explain it, is attributed to god. In the Middle Ages. People with illness like plaque or mental illness like split personality, were thought to be a work of the devil. People who got sick were told it because they had sinned or did something wrong. Humans don’t always reason. Many believe in they religious book and noting else. They won’t accept that something is wrong in they religious book. This is the logic. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/49 "2003-06-13T05:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ajfrod \* > **When something unusual happens. We think it is because of god.** First, please define _unusual_. Do you mean something statistically unlikely to happen? Or are you referring to something like a “miracle” which would be an apparent breaking of the laws of physics? Or something else, entirely? \*\* > [@](#): > > When there there no scientific explanation or we can’t explain it, is attributed to god.\*\* Yes, some people do and others do not. It’s not a pan-human trait rely to on the Gods as explanations for that which we can’t explain immediately. One could argue that investigating something that we don’t have an immediate explanation for is the basis of the scientific method. \*\* > [@](#): > > In the Middle Ages. People with illness like plaque or mental illness like split personality, were thought to be a work of the devil. People who got sick were told it because they had sinned or did something wrong.\*\* True, back then they often did rely on such explanations. However I could argue that you’re taking those incidents out of context. I think it could be argued that those explanations are as much because of the known science of the time as they were because of the political and religious situation in Europe. I never knew the Devil was responsible for gum disease. 😃 \*\* > [@](#): > > Humans don’t always reason. Many believe in they religious book and noting else. They won’t accept that something is wrong in they religious book. This is the logic. \*\* I’ll agree that are a small subset of humans who act in the way you describe, but not **all** do, unless you can show proof, I’ll say you’re wrong. And you’ve still not answered my question; how is that ecstatic experiences that are cross-cultural are similar and this is due to science? That seems to be what you’re saying. Otherwise, I’m sorry, I don’t follow what you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/50 "2003-06-13T05:59:47Z")
And to think that I’ve been missing out on this debate all these weeks… ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/51 "2003-06-13T06:14:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ajfrod \* > **Does god exist?** Unfortunately, that’s not a question that has an actual answer. There is insufficiant evidence to claim that God exists. However, because the common definitions of God indicate a being which transcends things like time, space, and logic, it’s not possible to prove that God _doesn’t_ exist, either. Me, I take the stance that, untill something can be shown to exist, it would be intellectually dishonest of me to just _assume_ that He/She/It exists. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/52 "2003-06-13T06:16:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*how is that ecstatic experiences that are cross-cultural are similar? \*\* What experiences are you talking about? Can you provide some cites so we can judge for ourselves? On preview: I’m with **Joe Random**. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/53 "2003-06-13T18:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ajfrod \* > \*\*Does god exist? > \*\* This is a meaningless question. It might as well be "Does \*@#%& exist? “God” is a meaningless term that doesn’t refer to anything in reality. The only rational answer is “Huh?” ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/54 "2003-06-14T07:22:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priceguy \* > \*\*What experiences are you talking about? Can you provide some cites so we can judge for ourselves? > > On preview: I’m with **Joe Random**. \*\* Okay, to quickly summarize: _Originally posted by ajfrod_ > [@](#): > > **Does god exist?** _response by Freyr_ > [@](#): > > \*\*My personal experience leads me to believe that the Gods do exist. But as has been pointed out, the evidence is purely subjective, which does not count as “proof.” However, many people across many cultures and throughout time have had similar experiences. Given the wide variety and cross-cultural dimension of these experiences, they do not seem to be a mental aberation. > > I count this as indirect evidence for proof of the existence of the Gods. \*\* _ajfrod’s response:_ > [@](#): > > \*\*The experiences across different cultures are due to science. > When something unusual happens it is attributed to god. \*\* _my question back to him was:_ > [@](#): > > \*\*Exactly how do you show that people who, in a cross-cultural context, have similar experiences about “God” or “the Gods” and that this is due to science? I’m not following your logic on this. Please explain it. \*\* _ajfrod rambled:_ > [@](#): > > \*\*When something unusual happens. We think it is because of god. > When there there no scientific explanation or we can’t explain it, is attributed to god. In the Middle Ages. People with illness like plaque or mental illness like split personality, were thought to be a work of the devil. People who got sick were told it because they had sinned or did something wrong. Humans don’t always reason. Many believe in they religious book and noting else. They won’t accept that something is wrong in they religious book. This is the logic. \*\* _trying to get back to my point, I said:_ > [@](#): > > \*\*And you’ve still not answered my question; how is that ecstatic experiences that are cross-cultural are similar and this is due to science? That seems to be what you’re saying. Otherwise, I’m sorry, I don’t follow what you’re getting at. \*\* The evidence I’m showing are the personal, ecstatic experiences people have had throughout all cultures and throughout history. No, they’re not really admissible evidence. I made that clear in my first post. However, taken the commonalities that seem to appear in these experiences and their frequency and diversity, (across cultures and time) it’s hard to catagorize them all as mental aberrations. Therefore, I feel they are indirect evidence of the Gods’ existence. If you’d like a historical example, look at the life of St. Theresa. ---
**Author:** ![ajfrod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ajfrod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajfrod)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/55 "2003-06-16T08:06:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*First, please define _unusual_. Do you mean something statistically unlikely to happen? Or are you referring to something like a “miracle” which would be an apparent breaking of the laws of physics? Or something else, entirely? > \*\* > I could be all. > [http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unusual](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unusual) [See this.](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unusual) > > \*\*Yes, some people do and others do not. It’s not a pan-human trait rely to on the Gods as explanations for that which we can’t explain immediately. One could argue that investigating something that we don’t have an immediate explanation for is the basis of the scientific method. > \*\* > \*\*True, back then they often did rely on such explanations. However I could argue that you’re taking those incidents out of context. I think it could be argued that those explanations are as much because of the known science of the time as they were because of the political and religious situation in Europe. I never knew the Devil was responsible for gum disease. 😃 > \*\* > > **I’ll agree that are a small subset of humans who act in the way you describe, but not all do, unless you can show proof, I’ll say you’re wrong.** > I nerver said all Humans. > \*\*And you’ve still not answered my question; how is that ecstatic experiences that are cross-cultural are similar and this is due to science? That seems to be what you’re saying. Otherwise, I’m sorry, I don’t follow what you’re getting at. \*\* > I is a fact. First tell me how you got to know about god? ---
**Author:** ![Reactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@Reactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reactor)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/56 "2003-06-16T09:53:56Z")
panache45… Maybe the question should have been “Does the god of your own mind exist?” and then everyone could have said “Yes!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/57 "2003-06-16T20:42:09Z")
I don’t think anyone can deny that people throughout the world and throughout history have had ecstatic experiences, just as they’ve had experiences involving succubi and aliens. However, the experiences, though common in a sense, are also culturally based, and tend to re-enforce whatever god belief exists in the culture. The alien abduction/succubi experience has been demonstrated to be physiological. Might not the ecstatic god experience be also? This is not saying that people having these experiences are aberrant or mentally deficient or deranged - they just interpret a real, internal, experience in terms of their cultures. I don’t think these experiences are any evidence at all for the existence of gods. ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933/58 "2003-06-16T23:36:20Z")
May I just step in again, this time to remind all posters here to remember that in the question of God’s existence, it is not really so much His existence as His relationships if any to mankind and to all that is of concern to mankind. For example, we can discuss no end about the existence of Bigfoot, but it happens that Bigfoot has no crucial relationships with mankind – unless some people start projecting such relationships, so Bigfoot is just a curiosity. Since we have already defined God the way we do, the omni of everything positive, and the omni against everything negative, and we have given Him all kinds of favorable human attributes; then it is unavoidable that He would have relationships of the most crucial kinds with mankind. Those who claim to have an experiential encounter with God, well and good, go forth and do everything that is good to fellowmen; but make sure that you first get their consent before you start your good deeds on them. For those who cannot see the reasons or the need to accept His existence, go forth also to do good to fellowmen without using God’s name; but again make sure that you get their consent first before you start your good deeds on them. As for me, I take it for granted that God is around but He is for most of the time playing some kind of hide and seek and making a lot of troubles among His believers thereby. Just the same I subscribe to the first alternative above, and I exercise the utmost autonomy and most critical reason as regards what God expects me to be and to do. Good luck to everyone. Susma Rio Sep [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-exist/178933.md?page=2)