# Does God lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433 "2012-02-01T17:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/81 "2012-02-02T16:22:46Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Now, we could debate the difference between ‘test’ and ‘tempt’, but I would propose that in the specific case of Abraham, the test was to do something that was known ‘bad’ (murder, human sacrifice) and it falls under the evil category. What is “evil” is subjective. God doesn’t think His acts are evil and I bet most Jews and Christians don’t either. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/82 "2012-02-02T16:31:02Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What is “evil” is subjective. God doesn’t think His acts are evil and I bet most Jews and Christians don’t either. If you don’t think asking a man to kill his son to test his loyalty to you is evil, you have a pretty shitty idea of what evil is. Never mind if the deity in question is omniscient. Then it’s just pure dickery. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/83 "2012-02-02T16:38:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you don’t think asking a man to kill his son to test his loyalty to you is evil, you have a pretty shitty idea of what evil is. > > Never mind if the deity in question is omniscient. Then it’s just pure dickery. If a deity cannot be held accountable for what it does, can its actions be deemed good or evil? If a deity cannot be held accountable (or even understood) by lesser beings, how can it be the arbiter of good or evil? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/84 "2012-02-02T16:41:32Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] Read what I wrote again. I think I was pretty clear. [/QUOTE] > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What you quoted says that God doesn’t tempt others to do evil, not that he never tests anyone. Why “which is the lie”?\*\* If it says what you say, both examples could be lies\*\*. bolding mine - ‘both could be lies’ - clearly the bible quote I quoted is verifiable as accurate. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/85 "2012-02-02T16:42:44Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What is “evil” is subjective. God doesn’t think His acts are evil and I bet most Jews and Christians don’t either. We aren’t debating what God ‘thinks’ we are debating the character ‘God’ as described and written about in the ‘Bible’. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/86 "2012-02-02T16:46:54Z")
> [@simster](#): > > bolding mine - > > ‘both could be lies’ - clearly the bible quote I quoted is verifiable as accurate. Again, what is “evil” is subjective. If one doesn’t think what he tempts others to do are acts of evil, then he’s not lying when he says he doesn’t tempt others to do evil. He could be mistaken (if there is an objective definition for “evil”), but not lying. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/87 "2012-02-02T16:48:49Z")
> [@simster](#): > > We aren’t debating what God ‘thinks’ we are debating the character ‘God’ as described and written about in the ‘Bible’. What God thinks is absolutely relevant to whether or not He’s lying. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/88 "2012-02-02T17:04:49Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What God thinks is absolutely relevant to whether or not He’s lying. In this particular case, I think not. In all other cases where we are asked to determine where a character stands on the Good-to-Evil scale, it is abundantly clear that we are being ask for our personal opinion, not the opinion of the character in question. If a character says something that doesn’t appear to be true, it really doesn’t matter how that character justifies the act within the confines of the story. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/89 "2012-02-02T17:08:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If a character says something that doesn’t appear to be true, it really doesn’t matter how that character justifies the act within the confines of the story. If a character genuinely believes his acts aren’t evil, then he’s not lying when he says he doesn’t do evil. It’s really that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/90 "2012-02-02T17:17:12Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > If a character genuinely believes his acts aren’t evil, then he’s not lying when he says he doesn’t do evil. It’s really that simple. Then most characters in stories don’t do evil, because most can justify their actions to themselves. If you don’t wish to use your own judgement in deciding whether the character “God” lies, then don’t. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/91 "2012-02-02T17:28:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then most characters in stories don’t do evil, because most can justify their actions to themselves. If what you say is true (most characters in stories think their actions aren’t evil), then it’s not true to say that they don’t do evil (that’s subjective), but it is true to say that they aren’t lying according to how I believe most people would define “lying.” Lying isn’t saying something that isn’t true; it’s intentionally saying something that isn’t true. If one believes his claim, he’s not lying. > [@](#): > > If you don’t wish to use your own judgement in deciding whether the character “God” lies, then don’t. I did use my own judgement. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/92 "2012-02-02T17:41:41Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > What God thinks is absolutely relevant to whether or not He’s lying. The only way we can determine what ‘God’ thinks is thru the writings - and again, the assumption is that ALL of the writings are directed by God. How else would you propose to know the ‘mind’ of God? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/93 "2012-02-02T17:45:59Z")
> [@simster](#): > > The only way we can determine what ‘God’ thinks is thru the writings - and again, the assumption is that ALL of the writings are directed by God. Okay? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/94 "2012-02-02T18:01:10Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Okay? You were implying that God thinks contrary to what is written - or that you had special insight into what God thinks - IE “to him, murdering your kid is not evil if he commands it” - last I knew, that is not recorded so is a best guess on your part and not applicable to the debate at hand. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Lying isn’t saying something that isn’t true; it’s intentionally saying something that isn’t true. If God is ‘omniscient’ - then he knows everything - if everything that is recorded in the bible is at his command/will - then any false statement in there is evidence of God lying. QED. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/95 "2012-02-02T18:19:03Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You were implying that God thinks contrary to what is written Contrary to what is written? What written thing are you referring to? Your claim is that God lied when He said He doesn’t tempt anyone to do evil. A lie is intentionally telling a falsehood. The onus is on you to tell me what was really in His mind, not me. _ **If** _ one believes what they’re saying is true, they’re not lying. You’re saying that He lied; then you tell me what was on his mind. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/96 "2012-02-02T18:25:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > If God is ‘omniscient’ - then he knows everything - if everything that is recorded in the bible is at his command/will - then any false statement in there is evidence of God lying. > > QED. Some say that God doesn’t claim to be omniscient in the Bible, but that’s another debate. What you say is true if we’re talking about something objective. What you and I think are acts of evil and what the character God thinks are evil is another matter. You would have to prove that God is objectively evil to make your case and that He knew it due to His omniscience. Since this debate is on whether or not God ever lied and the opponents are generally believers, that’s going to be hard to do when they almost all believe God is all good and almost everyone (IME) agrees that evilness is subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/97 "2012-02-02T18:29:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Contrary to what is written? What written thing are you referring to? > > Your claim is that God lied when He said He doesn’t tempt anyone to do evil. A lie is intentionally telling a falsehood. The onus is on you to tell me what was really in His mind, not me. _ **If** _ one believes what they’re saying is true, they’re not lying. You’re saying that He lied; then you tell me what was on his mind. Do you apply these standards to all characters in books, or is this special pleading? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/98 "2012-02-02T18:33:17Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Contrary to what is written? What written thing are you referring to? asked and anwered already. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Your claim is that God lied when He said He doesn’t tempt anyone to do evil. A lie is intentionally telling a falsehood. The onus is on you to tell me what was really in His mind, not me. _ **If** _ one believes what they’re saying is true, they’re not lying. You’re saying that He lied; then you tell me what was on his mind. Actually - the quote says 'For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" It does not qualify the type of ‘tempting’ that god might do unto others - only that God cannot be tempted by ‘evil’. Therefore, any tempting/testing by God is contrary to this scripture. The ‘Old Testament’ is full of ‘tests’ by God unto his followers. Therefore, God lied when instructing James to write this passage. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/99 "2012-02-02T18:38:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If a deity cannot be held accountable for what it does, can its actions be deemed good or evil? Thrice yes. In most respects, the ruler of a modern nation can’t (or won’t) be held accountable for whatever they do or order. We can still deem the \*hell \*out of them. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/100 "2012-02-02T18:39:13Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Some say that God doesn’t claim to be omniscient in the Bible, but that’s another debate. What you say is true if we’re talking about something objective. What you and I think are acts of evil and what the character God thinks are evil is another matter. You would have to prove that God is objectively evil to make your case and that He knew it due to His omniscience. Since this debate is on whether or not God ever lied and the opponents are generally believers, that’s going to be hard to do when they almost all believe God is all good and almost everyone (IME) agrees that evilness is subjective. Special pleading on your case - We know what is written - [QUOTE=Hebrews 4:13] Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Romans11:33-36] 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[a] knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”\*\* 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”[c] 36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433.md?page=6)