# Does God lie? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433 "2012-02-01T17:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/101 "2012-02-02T18:40:50Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > If a character genuinely believes his acts aren’t evil, then he’s not lying when he says he doesn’t do evil. It’s really that simple. By that definition, Hitler is p. cool. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/102 "2012-02-02T18:42:04Z")
> [@simster](#): > > asked and anwered already. > > Actually - the quote says 'For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone" > > It does not qualify the type of ‘tempting’ that god might do unto others - only that God cannot be tempted by ‘evil’. > > Therefore, any tempting/testing by God is contrary to this scripture. > > The ‘Old Testament’ is full of ‘tests’ by God unto his followers. > > Therefore, God lied when instructing James to write this passage. **Now** you’re going to move the goalpost? Yes, God commands people to do things. If you think that’s the same as tempting another, especially when taking the above passage in context, good for you. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/103 "2012-02-02T18:46:29Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > **Now** you’re going to move the goalpost? > > Yes, God commands people to do things. If you think that’s the same as tempting another, especially when taking the above passage in context, good for you. How did I move the goalpost? The end of the Abraham passage states that it was a test of Abrahams faith. Testing/Tempting is equivalent in this regaurd - I could say “God is testing my faith by tempting me with murdering my first born son” ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/104 "2012-02-02T18:47:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > By that definition, Hitler is p. cool. Is that short for pretty cool?" If Hitler genuinely thought that his actions were good and he claimed the same, then he wasn’t lying. Why what I said makes him “p. cool” is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/105 "2012-02-02T19:09:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > How did I move the goalpost? I’ve made it clear that what I was arguing is that God wasn’t necessarily lying when He claimed he doesn’t temp anyone to do evil. > [@](#): > > The end of the Abraham passage states that it was a test of Abrahams faith. > > Testing/Tempting is equivalent in this regaurd - I could say “God is testing my faith by tempting me with murdering my first born son” I think it’s clear when you take the passage in context what God meant by tempting. > [@](#): > > 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. > **[Bible Gateway passage: James 1 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%2B1&version=NIV)** > > James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings. Trials and Temptations - Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that... Temptation here is about temptation to do “evil” such as when an opportunity in life tempts one do do something they think God is against, not something He has commanded. The passage even goes on to define temptation: _“but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.”_ Again, if you believe God is saying the equivalent to “I have no commandments” because listening to commandments are tempting, good for you. I don’t think you’ll be successful in convincing many people that it’s the same thing when taking the passage in context. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/106 "2012-02-02T19:18:36Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I’ve made it clear that what I was arguing is that God wasn’t necessarily lying when He claimed he doesn’t temp anyone to do evil. > I think it’s clear when you take the passage in context what God meant by tempting. > [James 1 NIV - James, a servant of God and of the Lord - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1&version=NIV) > > Temptation here is about temptation to do “evil” such as when an opportunity in life tempts one do do something they think God is against, not something He has commanded. The passage even goes on to define temptation: _“but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.”_ Again, if you believe God is saying the equivalent to “I have no commandments” because listening to commandments are tempting, good for you. I don’t think you’ll be successful in convincing many people that it’s the same thing when taking the passage in context. You;re shifting the blame - James statement about what God does ends with “God does not tempt anyone” - he then goes on to explain that when a person is tempted to do evil, it comes from within. This has nothing to do with what God would (or would not) Tempt someone with. It is your own interpetation that ‘temptation’ can only be for evil. You can certainly tempt people with rewards for good works - isn’t that what heaven is all about? I’ve made it clear that any untruth in the bible is an intentional lie by God - The words are written at the direction of God. God ‘knows’ all. Any false statement is an intentional lie. We can table the ‘tempt vs test’ debate if you like. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/107 "2012-02-02T19:30:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > It is your own interpetation that ‘temptation’ can only be for evil. I read the passage in context and have concluded the claim that God doesn’t tempt is specifically talking about temptation to do evil. You’re free to keep trying to convince me otherwise, but you’re going to have to provide a different argument than you’ve repeated to be successful. > [@](#): > > I’ve made it clear that any untruth in the bible is an intentional lie by God I’ve also made myself clear and if I repeat that you’d have to prove that God’s actions were objectively evil to make your case, we’d be going around in more circles than we have been. Unless you have a different argument to make, I think we’re done here. ---
**Author:** ![tazmin98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@tazmin98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tazmin98)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/108 "2012-02-02T20:26:22Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I thought he could do anything. By definition. I thought that too. He isn’t powerful as people say. What a fraud! ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/109 "2012-02-02T20:39:21Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I read the passage in context and have concluded the claim that God doesn’t tempt is specifically talking about temptation to do evil. You’re free to keep trying to convince me otherwise, but you’re going to have to provide a different argument than you’ve repeated to be successful. > I’ve also made myself clear and if I repeat that you’d have to prove that God’s actions were objectively evil to make your case, we’d be going around in more circles than we have been. Unless you have a different argument to make, I think we’re done here. The debate is not “were God’s actions objectively evil” - the debate from the OP is “did God LIE”. You can lie for good purposes too - still a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/110 "2012-02-02T20:55:30Z")
So if lies make baby Jesus cry… ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/111 "2012-02-02T21:19:51Z")
OP, has your friend actually read the Bible? Even Genesis? It includes (in all mainstream versions) two contradictory versions of creation. It’s hard to know if the God of the Bible lied if we can’t even be sure if he created man first or animals first; which is true? But since you seem to be asking about whether the character God ever lies, then the Sarah story is a pretty good example. OK, it’s a white lie, but it’s still a lie. > [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > If a character genuinely believes his acts aren’t evil, then he’s not lying when he says he doesn’t do evil. It’s really that simple. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then most characters in stories don’t do evil, because most can justify their actions to themselves. If you don’t wish to use your own judgement in deciding whether the character “God” lies, then don’t. In the fictional universe of the Bible, everything God does is good. Therefore, if he tempts you to do it, it’s not tempting you to evil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/112 "2012-02-02T21:26:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > In the fictional universe of the Bible, everything God does is good. Therefore, if he tempts you to do it, it’s not tempting you to evil. The OP asks if God lies. If he says he wont tempt but he does anyway, for good or evil he lied. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/113 "2012-02-02T21:49:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The OP asks if God lies. If he says he wont tempt but he does anyway, for good or evil he lied. Isn’t the specific line about tempting you to evil? It’s not evil if God says for you to do it, because God is not evil. This is the God who killed millions in a flood, so it’s not like he’s against baby-killing per se. It just has to be for the right reason. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/114 "2012-02-02T22:05:31Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Isn’t the specific line about tempting you to evil? It’s not evil if God says for you to do it, because God is not evil. > > This is the God who killed millions in a flood, so it’s not like he’s against baby-killing per se. It just has to be for the right reason. That’s being debated above - I say that the line is ambigous as to the ‘intent’ of the temptation - it ends with ‘God will not tempt you’ - its a fair point that the rest of the passage is about ‘evil’ temptations, but the author is seperating those specifically from “god will not tempt you”. Tempt == Test (2nd dictionary definition) - God tests folks all the time. We usually associate that with bad things - but there is no specific reason it cannot also be said that he tests and/or tempts with good things. You are also making the jump that “god is good, therefore anything he asks is by definition good” - and while not the subject of the debate, that is questionable - clearly Abraham had issues with the request - even if he did start to follow thru - so even Abraham did not equate “all god command == good commands”. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/115 "2012-02-02T22:15:18Z")
> [@simster](#): > > That’s being debated above - I say that the line is ambigous as to the ‘intent’ of the temptation - it ends with ‘God will not tempt you’ - its a fair point that the rest of the passage is about ‘evil’ temptations, but the author is seperating those specifically from “god will not tempt you”. > > Tempt == Test (2nd dictionary definition) - God tests folks all the time. We usually associate that with bad things - but there is no specific reason it cannot also be said that he tests and/or tempts with good things. > > You are also making the jump that “god is good, therefore anything he asks is by definition good” - and while not the subject of the debate, that is questionable - clearly Abraham had issues with the request - even if he did start to follow thru - so even Abraham did not equate “all god command == good commands”. Correction to my third paragraph - nothing in the passage suggests that Abraham took issue with God’s request. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/116 "2012-02-03T04:08:26Z")
> [@tazmin98](#): > > Well it’s actually a story that the author explains what each verse means while I look through the bible. If you don’t mind my asking, what are you talking about? I’m always on the lookout for good commentaries to help guide me (or more often motivate me) toward reading the Bible. Asimov’s guide was compelling enough to get me through Ezekial, but I haven’t been able to stomach the post-Exile writings at all. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433/117 "2012-02-07T22:50:30Z")
My god doesn’t lie, I mean I haven’t yet worked out what I want him to say but when he does it will be the goddamn truth! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-lie/611433.md?page=5)