# Does God reward guile and deceit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534 "2009-07-10T06:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/21 "2009-07-11T00:53:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think that God in the Bible admires cleverness, and certainly likes Jacob. Jacob not only tricks Isaac, pretending he’s Esau, he also tricks Laban, his father in law, using striped hazel rods to get healthy sheep to produce striped lambs and unhealthy sheep to produce unstriped lambs. Then, of course, Laban tricks Jacob, first marrying him to his daughter Laban instead of his daughter Rachel. Then later, his sons trick him, telling him his son Joseph is dead when he’s really a slave in Egypt, and Joseph tricks him and Jacob’s brothers, pretending not to know them and that Benjamin is a thief, and his son Judah is tricked by Tamar, who pretends to be a prostitute so she can have children. So, the whole story of Jacob is the story of people tricking each other. And I named my shithead little boy Jacob, and he likes to “just kid around”. Great. He is Loki reincarnated, that one. And he’s all of three. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/22 "2009-07-11T01:13:06Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > As those of you familiar with the saying, “Three Jews, three opinions” can guess, the only consensus is that there is no consensus. You are too conservative. “Three jews, five opinions” is more like it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/23 "2009-07-11T01:32:42Z")
I’ll take “Who are Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego for a thousand, Alex” ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/24 "2009-07-12T02:29:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Wait, I’m confused–how is Esau a jerk? How is Jacob naive? > > I’ve always seen it that Jacob was devious and Esau fairly stupid; and that the Lord, for his ever-inscrutable reasons, had chosen the former as the ultimate father of the nation promised to Abraham. Isaac, preferring his firstborn, had nonetheless determined to pass the birthright on to him, whereupon Jacob & his mother took it upon themselves to get that birthright rather than trust in Providence. Drama then ensued, and said drama may be seen as the result of their not trusting in the Lord’s plan. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough in my first post. I was mostly talking about _midrash_, the collection of stories that the rabbis say were passed down from Moses, but don’t actually appear in the Bible. The director’s cut version, if you will. The midrash has a lot of things to say about Esau, very few of them nice. (His only good point, apparently, was his devotion to his parents). Jacob’s taking away the birthright is almost a rescue in this version. Even looking in the text, though, there are some indications to their characters. -Esau sold his birthright for a bunch of beans. He was the family heir, supposed to carry on the traditions of Isaac and Abraham. And how seriously did he take this weighty responsibility? “Eh, whatever, you can have my birthright if you make me lunch.” It wasn’t like Jacob was taking advantage of his poor starving brother, either- if you look at the text, the sale is finalized after Esau finishes his meal. Also, as a kind of hint, Esau is called a hunter. Hunters in the Buble tend to be the bad guys, so much that “hunter” can be taken as shorthand for “homocidal barbarian”. -Jacob doesn’t seem to be a wily as people think. He is first decribed as an _ish taam_, a “simple man” who stays in his tent all day. While Esau is out hunting, probably hanging with the locals, seeing the world, Jacob hangs around studying in his parents’ house. Probably book smart, but not street-wise. It’s Rebecca who comes up with the whole “put on goat skins and pretend to be your brother” thing. Jacob demurs at first. If you look at his objection in the original Hebrew, he is not happy at all. In Biblical Hebrew there are two words for “perhaps”, _pen_ and _aylai_. _Pen_ can better be translated as “lest”: don’t do X lest Y happen. _Aylai_ has the connotation of “I hope so”: if we buy a lotto ticket, perhaps we will become millionares. When Jacob says, “Perhaps my father will feel me (and find me out)”, he uses _aylai_ instead of _pen_. “I really don’t want to do this, and some part of me is hoping I’ll be found out before I go through with it”. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/25 "2009-07-12T02:34:51Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’ll take “Who are Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego for a thousand, Alex” Would-be martyrs from the book of Daniel. Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego were Daniel’s pals, actually. If I remember the story correctly, Nebuchadnezer was having everyone bow down to this big idol- a statue of himself, I believe. Those ancient rulers were all ego. Anyway, S M & A refused, and were thrown into a big oven. They came out unharmed, and Nebuchadnezer was impressed and pardoned them and got rid of the statue. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/26 "2009-07-12T02:37:32Z")
The midrash like to take the morally ambiguous characters of the bible and make them black and white. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/27 "2009-07-12T03:20:02Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Sorry I wasn’t clear enough in my first post. I was mostly talking about _midrash_, the collection of stories that the rabbis say were passed down from Moses, but don’t actually appear in the Bible. The director’s cut version, if you will. > > The midrash has a lot of things to say about Esau, very few of them nice. (His only good point, apparently, was his devotion to his parents). Jacob’s taking away the birthright is almost a rescue in this version. > > Even looking in the text, though, there are some indications to their characters. > > -Esau sold his birthright for a bunch of beans. He was the family heir, supposed to carry on the traditions of Isaac and Abraham. And how seriously did he take this weighty responsibility? “Eh, whatever, you can have my birthright if you make me lunch.” It wasn’t like Jacob was taking advantage of his poor starving brother, either- if you look at the text, the sale is finalized after Esau finishes his meal. > > Also, as a kind of hint, Esau is called a hunter. Hunters in the Buble tend to be the bad guys, so much that “hunter” can be taken as shorthand for “homocidal barbarian”. > > -Jacob doesn’t seem to be a wily as people think. He is first decribed as an _ish taam_, a “simple man” who stays in his tent all day. While Esau is out hunting, probably hanging with the locals, seeing the world, Jacob hangs around studying in his parents’ house. Probably book smart, but not street-wise. > > It’s Rebecca who comes up with the whole “put on goat skins and pretend to be your brother” thing. Jacob demurs at first. If you look at his objection in the original Hebrew, he is not happy at all. In Biblical Hebrew there are two words for “perhaps”, _pen_ and _aylai_. _Pen_ can better be translated as “lest”: don’t do X lest Y happen. _Aylai_ has the connotation of “I hope so”: if we buy a lotto ticket, perhaps we will become millionares. When Jacob says, “Perhaps my father will feel me (and find me out)”, he uses _aylai_ instead of _pen_. “I really don’t want to do this, and some part of me is hoping I’ll be found out before I go through with it”. Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534/28 "2009-07-12T04:53:55Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > Abraham sure came out ahead both times he tried to pass Sarah off as his sister instead of his wife. She was his sister. :smack: She was his wife. :smack: She was his sister. :smack: She was his wife. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-reward-guile-and-deceit/502534.md?page=1)