# Does God use magic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2001, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134 "2001-03-23T11:21:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Procacious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Procacious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procacious)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/1 "2001-03-23T11:21:36Z")
The thread on Evolution and its affect on one’s belief in God got me to thinking. How many religious folk believe that God uses magic? What I mean is, does God use powers that have scientific explainations, or does God use magic? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/2 "2001-03-23T12:38:40Z")
I’ll assume for the moment you are speaking of the Christian God. The answer to this is obvious, you simply have to read the bible. Check the concordance for _miracle_. Miracles, by definition, lie outside the realm of science. ---
**Author:** ![Procacious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Procacious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procacious)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/3 "2001-03-23T14:10:19Z")
I always thought of the 10 plagues on the Egyptians to be miracles (although negative miracles rather than the positive ones we normally think of), yet there are scientific explainations for why the Nile river would turn blood red and a swarm of locusts would eat all the crops. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/4 "2001-03-23T17:18:02Z")
Procacious wrote: > [@](#): > > does God use magic? And if so, what’s His casting level? How many 3rd-level spells can He cast per day? Does He use a Ring of Wizardry or Pearls of Power to increase this total? How many d6 does He do when He casts _fireball_?\* Does He specialize in any one School of Magic for the extra-spell-per-day bonus, or is He a general-purpose Mage? Does He use scrolls? If so, does He prepare the scrolls Himself, or does He just find them lying around on the dungeon floor with the rest of the randomly-generated treasure? And what did He think of Jeremy Irons’ hammy portrayal of Profion? [SUB]\*) I realize that, as of the 2nd Edition rules, _fireball_s are limited to 10d6. But for the sake of argument, pretend we’re still operating under the 1st Edition rules here.[/SUB] ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/5 "2001-03-23T21:26:03Z")
> [@](#): > > But for the sake of argument, pretend we’re still operating under the 1st Edition rules here. I think we have to assume that, tracer. Evolution is disallowed; there can be no 2nd Edition. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/6 "2001-03-23T21:35:21Z")
said: any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. i presume the same is true for PSYCHIC POWERS. what is MAGIC? if you don’t know how to do it, how can you KNOW what it is? Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/7 "2001-03-23T21:38:21Z")
Of course he does. Only the Devil uses science. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/8 "2001-03-24T00:28:58Z")
dal\_timgar wrote: > [@](#): > > arthur c clarke said: > > any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. > > i presume the same is true for PSYCHIC POWERS. Yep – the tricks used by “psychics” such as Uri Geller are indistingushable from stage magic. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/9 "2001-03-25T02:09:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Procacious wrote: > > And if so, what’s His casting level? How many 3rd-level spells can He cast per day? Does He use a Ring of Wizardry or Pearls of Power to increase this total? How many d6 does He do when He casts _fireball_?\* Does He specialize in any one School of Magic for the extra-spell-per-day bonus, or is He a general-purpose Mage? Does He use scrolls? If so, does He prepare the scrolls Himself, or does He just find them lying around on the dungeon floor with the rest of the randomly-generated treasure? And what did He think of Jeremy Irons’ hammy portrayal of Profion? > [SUB]\*) I realize that, as of the 2nd Edition rules, _fireball_s are limited to 10d6. But for the sake of argument, pretend we’re still operating under the 1st Edition rules here.[/SUB] \*\* Tracer, I have to say this, but ever since youe post I’ve had this image in my head of the Sistine Chapel as painted by Larry Elmore, or perhaps Jeff Easley. Damn you. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/10 "2001-03-25T02:28:44Z")
Tough call. He apparently pulled a rib out of Adam and make a woman, but I’ve seen Penn and Teller cut off a finger and make two babes appear. Noah however, has my vote. He somehow managed to fit every species of creature on the earth into a 400 foot long boat. All Copperfield ever did was make the statue of liberty disappear. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Procacious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Procacious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procacious)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/11 "2001-03-25T02:42:13Z")
My main reason for asking this is that I want to know if most religious people feel that there is a method to all miracles that they see. As I scientist, I would love to crack the code to all of God’s miracles, even if I could not replicate them. I would just like to know how they work. If most of the religious people think as I do, then science and religion would be natural allies (at least from the religious person’s point of view) rather than the enemies they seem to be in many cases. I realize that a lot of religious people are not anti-science, but there are a significant portion that are. I am just trying to get a feel for what proportion of religious people think that God’s powers are not magic but are based on elaborate scientific principles that we could eventually understand. For example, when God flooded the world, did the water come from a source already on the earth or did God magically make it appear and then remove it later after the 40 days were over? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/12 "2001-03-25T03:25:59Z")
Alessan wrote: > [@](#): > > Tracer, I have to say this, but ever since youe post I’ve had this image in my head of the Sistine Chapel as painted by Larry Elmore, or perhaps Jeff Easley. With Eve decked out in one of those chainmail bikinis? Rrrrowr! ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/13 "2001-03-25T05:20:59Z")
I hope I’m not hijacking anything, but here’s a Mormon perspective: God follows natural laws, but our understanding of what those laws may be is limited. We believe that he didn’t create the world out of nothing (_poof_ there’s a world) but rather “organized” matter that was already in existance. I’ve wondered about the flood thing too. I suppose he could have “borrowed” the water from somewhere else for a while! Or maybe there really is that much water here on the earth (polar icecaps?) or maybe the whole earth wasn’t really flooded but just part of it (willing to accept that this may be allegorical or somewhat other than the Biblical account). ---
**Author:** ![Procacious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Procacious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procacious)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/14 "2001-03-25T05:31:49Z")
I sometimes wonder, if all the magic were taken out of God’s miracles, would people be more likely to believe in God (because the story is easier to believe) or less likely to believe in God (because explainations not involving a supreme being have been given to all of the reported “miracles”)? It is hard to say. I suppose my current beliefs would not change either way. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/15 "2001-03-25T05:34:29Z")
The Orthodox Jewish perspective on this issue is that G-d does do things (sometimes) in a supernatural manner. I wouldn’t use the word “magic” simply because it has a specific meaning in a Judaic context which would not apply in the situation of G-d. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/16 "2001-03-25T06:19:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Procacious \* > I sometimes wonder, if all the magic were taken out of God’s miracles, would people be more likely to believe in God (because the story is easier to believe) or less likely to believe in God (because explainations not involving a supreme being have been given to all of the reported “miracles”)? It is hard to say. I suppose my current beliefs would not change either way. My belief in God is not conditional upon miracles and whether I understand, or not, how they occurred. Those who search the spirit within them will find Him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/17 "2001-03-25T06:28:54Z")
I think the idea is not that God does miracles, but that God is simply not bound by the laws of physics, or even by cause-and-effect. Since the Universe is subjective to His will, he just decides that things will be a certain way, and they are. He made the laws, He can break them. Using the word “magic” implies that God and Existance are two seperate things. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/18 "2001-03-25T06:46:10Z")
Oh, and Tracer - > [@](#): > > With Eve decked out in one of those chainmail bikinis? Rrrrowr! Yep, she was - with pointed ears, no less! And for some reason, God was riding a blue dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Procacious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Procacious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procacious)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/19 "2001-03-25T06:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Using the word “magic” implies that God and Existance are two seperate things. Hmmm, never though of them as being one and the same. I must say, one of the hardest parts about understanding religion is that no two people can agree on exactly what it means to them. That being said, I don’t see why some religious people try and convert others. The people they convert are not going to believe exactly what the converter believes. They are going to bastardize it (either significantly or slightly) and thus are not actually going to be a member of the same religion at all (although they will both have the same title for their beliefs {i.e. Christianity}). ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2001, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134/20 "2001-03-26T01:00:52Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Helena \* > I hope I’m not hijacking anything, but here’s a Mormon perspective: > > God follows natural laws, but our understanding of what those laws may be is limited. Now now, that statement is not scriptural. God _created_ what we perceive as natural laws. Consequently, miracles may be interpreted to be when God commands the elements to behave in a manner that we don’t see in our everyday lives. Let’s not present an individual’s beliefs as the teachings of the LDS church. [/hijack] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-god-use-magic/59134.md?page=2)