# Does government hold the right to deny or disparage liberty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493 "2009-10-03T22:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/41 "2009-10-13T23:14:15Z")
**liberty on trial** > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes. Governments are instituted to restrict liberty. The freedom to sell adulterated food is restricted by government. The freedom to defraud the consumer is restricted by government. The freedom to abuse employees is restricted by government. One man’s liberty is another man’s tyranny.\*\*No. Governments are instituted to secure the weak from the strong. By whom are such peaceful pursuits “well regulated”? By People as Government. I did not ask for demonstration of how easily Words and Law are construed to disparage liberty. There is no free right to harm or defraud or unduly threaten others; at least not within my own dominion. liberty is innocent until proven guilty [Words](http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html) might also intend to mean governance through well-regulated pursuit of peace. Please prove beyond a reasonable doubt that well-regulated pursuit of peace is not a self-retained right. ItS peace rwjefferson \*\* my native language is heartland american my native tongue is in the spirit can you decipher gibberish \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/42 "2009-10-13T23:22:03Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Please prove beyond a reasonable doubt that well-regulated pursuit of peace is not a self-retained right. Please define, in unambiguous terms, “reasonable doubt”, “well-regulated pursuit of peace”, and “self-retained right”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/43 "2009-10-14T00:16:52Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > **can you decipher gibberish** I sure as hell can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/44 "2009-10-14T01:59:53Z")
Seriously, rw, you’re putting words together but the lines aren’t making any sense. “Liberty is innocent until proven guilty” “My native language is heartland american my native tongue is in the spirit” “The spirit of liberty and justice and equality for all does not change because Word and Law are construed to deny or disparage or infringe the inalienable and self retained right of well regulated peaceful pursuits.” “Does government have the right to construe law to deny or disparage or infringe the inalienable and self-retained right of liberty?” “Everything is a question of tyranny vs well regulated right” I have no idea what you’re talking about when you write things like this. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/45 "2009-10-14T02:11:25Z")
The word “liberty” has no legal meaning, and **Nemo** is right. The OP is spouting semantic gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/46 "2009-10-14T02:29:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The word “liberty” has no legal meaning, and **Nemo** is right. The OP is spouting semantic gibberish. And you’re surprised? ALL of his threads are like this. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/47 "2009-10-17T16:09:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [1792, actually.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States#Laws_covering_the_National_Guard_and_the_National_Guard_of_the_United_States) [Er, no. 1903.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903) Linked from your own cite. The National Guard was created and named as such in 1903. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/48 "2009-10-17T18:47:42Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > [Er, no. 1903.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903) Linked from your own cite. The National Guard was created and named as such in 1903. Merely a new name for an institution contemporaneous with the Second Amendment, which is what this is about; see post #23. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/49 "2009-10-18T00:46:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Merely a new name for an institution contemporaneous with the Second Amendment, which is what this is about; see post #23. We’ve refuted this several times before, and yet it keeps getting reasserted by those who want to dismiss any notion that the Second Amendment refers to a personal right to keep firearms. National Guard != militia. And post #15 contains a glaring error: National Guard members don’t have any right to personally own their weapons: their service arms are issued to them while on active duty and returned to the armory when they’re done. So either you have to toss out the Second Amendment altogether as referring to an institution that became extinct in 1903, or you have to concede that it refers to an individual right. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/50 "2009-10-18T22:27:35Z")
\*\*now is a good time to break the cycle \*\* Please feel free to respond in a way intended to enlighten reasoned discussion and debate. Please feel free to cite the first word or phrase that departs simple understanding. Please feel free to offer best guess of what my cryptic words might intend to mean. well-reasoned responses are always greatly appreciated Further objections are duly noted. I hold DoI precedent over whatever after might be constituted as better-regulated governance. I stand and hold even for the following. Liberty is on trial with each and every defendant; liberty fulfills her only call and duty with the simple plea innocent. Obligation now turns to prosecution to expeditiously state and prove their case. Prove government holds the right to deny or disparage the self-retained right of well-regulated peaceful pursuit. Prove just government is not instituted to secure this inalienable right of liberty equal for all. ItS rw~ \*\* the spirit of liberty cannot be bound by Word or Law \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/51 "2009-10-19T00:55:35Z")
RW, your posts are not getting any clearer. > [@](#): > > now is a good time to break the cycle What cycle? > [@](#): > > Please feel free to respond in a way intended to enlighten reasoned discussion and debate. Please feel free to cite the first word or phrase that departs simple understanding. Please feel free to offer best guess of what my cryptic words might intend to mean. well-reasoned responses are always greatly appreciated I think this is what we’ve all been doing here. I’m guessing from the context that what you’re saying is that you think Chicago’s gun control laws are an unconstitutional restriction on fire-arm ownership. > [@](#): > > Further objections are duly noted. I hold DoI precedent over whatever after might be constituted as better-regulated governance. I stand and hold even for the following. Liberty is on trial with each and every defendant; liberty fulfills her only call and duty with the simple plea innocent. Obligation now turns to prosecution to expeditiously state and prove their case. I have no idea what this means. > [@](#): > > Prove government holds the right to deny or disparage the self-retained right of well-regulated peaceful pursuit. > Prove just government is not instituted to secure this inalienable right of liberty equal for all. You keep issuing these challenges. Explain why any of us are obligated to prove anything to you. This is a discussion; you’re not the judge. You are as obligated to defend your views as everyone else is. > [@](#): > > the spirit of liberty cannot be bound by Word or Law What is the spirit of liberty? What is Word of Law? How does one bind the other? What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/52 "2009-10-19T01:14:04Z")
Does anyone know what the fuck the OP is saying? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/53 "2009-10-19T02:02:30Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Prove government holds the right to deny or disparage the self-retained right of well-regulated peaceful pursuit. > Prove just government is not instituted to secure this inalienable right of liberty equal for all. Prove that I haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/54 "2009-10-20T21:25:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Prove that I haven’t. :dubious: So now you’re the government? I may just stop paying taxes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/55 "2009-10-20T21:43:08Z")
No, **I** am the government. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/56 "2009-10-20T21:46:24Z")
Wait, I thought _you_ were Keyser Soze. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/57 "2009-10-20T22:12:03Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Wait, I thought _you_ were Keyser Soze. I am Spartacus. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/58 "2009-10-20T22:18:53Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Wait, I thought _you_ were Keyser Soze. Nope, Lady Jane Grey. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/59 "2009-10-20T22:58:33Z")
So, Lady Jane Grey is Keyser Soze? This makes no sense at all. I’m going back to try and parse some sense out of **rwjefferson’s** posts. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/60 "2009-10-21T02:14:28Z")
Those rumors about Kevin Spacey being Grey have been going around for years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493.md?page=4)