# Does government hold the right to deny or disparage liberty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493 "2009-10-03T22:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/81 "2009-11-14T03:55:00Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > That such a simple and self-evident point might still somehow prove too cryptic for most, the constitution was even more brightly enlightened and amended: [Thou shall not construe Word or Law to prohibit or disparage the most certain right of all: liberty in the spirit of peaceful quest.](http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am9)“The enumeration (listing) in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” Your statement about the “peaceful quest” is not in your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/82 "2009-11-14T04:04:23Z")
Depends on what you mean by a “peaceful quest”, **rwjefferson**. Your idea of “peaceful,” might not be the same as mine, nor the government’s. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/83 "2009-11-16T01:17:28Z")
\*\* pudding is not the same as justice \*\* > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your statement about the “peaceful quest” is not in your cite. The statements “No State shall… grant any Title of Nobility” and “The enumeration (listing) in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people” are. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Depends on what you mean by a “peaceful quest”, **rwjefferson**. Your idea of “peaceful,” might not be the same as mine, nor the government’s. And if your idea of “peaceful” does not harm or threaten another, I will stand in the spirit of justice even for you. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Your honor, I move for a mistrial. > The burden of proof is in the pudding. Your motion is denied. In the court of justice, the burden of proof is carried solely by government prosecution. I accept your closing arguments as admission you have no better case for further prosecution. How else might I help you better understand liberty is innocent until proven guilty? What do you know of persecution by any other Name or device? ItS liberty and justice equal for all r~ \*\* after all; this is my own thread and court \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/84 "2009-11-16T02:32:42Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Your motion is denied. In the court of justice, the burden of proof is carried solely by government prosecution. I accept your closing arguments as admission you have no better case for further prosecution. How else might I help you better understand liberty is innocent until proven guilty? > > What do you know of persecution by any other Name or device? First of all, you’re saying that government is doing wrong to justice. That makes justice the victim, and government the defendant. Your burden of proof is all screwed up. You have to prove that government is doing something wrong, and most people here can’t made heads or tails of your nonsensical arguments. Secondly, let’s just send this to the jury. Nobody here is going to vote to convict government, except for you, and as the judge, you don’t get a vote. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/85 "2009-11-16T13:35:45Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > **after all; this is my own thread and court** No, it isn’t. Please try to make sense or this will be locked. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/86 "2009-11-17T19:03:11Z")
Uh, “peaceful pursuit?” Well, jaywalking is technically “peaceful”, but the government definitely has the right to outlaw it. Certain protests, if they impeed others (such as blocking traffic, creating a public hazard, etc) can be outlawed. (I’m not permitting to sit in the middle of the road, for example, to make a point, even though I’m technically being “peaceful”) ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/87 "2009-11-23T02:33:14Z")
\*\* the cycle continues \*\* > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Uh, “peaceful pursuit?” Well, jaywalking is technically “peaceful”, but the government definitely has the right to outlaw it. > Certain protests, if they impeed others (such as blocking traffic, creating a public hazard, etc) can be outlawed. (I’m not permitting to sit in the middle of the road, for example, to make a point, even though I’m technically being “peaceful”) We’ve covered this very same ground many times before. Impeding and threatening others is “technically” not the same as “peaceful” for those thus “impeded” and “other than wise” “threatened”. Have you even tried further “re: search construe and Constitution”? That you and the remaining posters still deny any better understanding of simple founding truth tells ever more clearly of you than me. I am even now learning. \*\* convict is not the same as forgive nationalism is not the same as patriotism \*\* > [@Ravenman](#): > > First of all, you’re saying that government is doing wrong to justice. That makes justice the victim, and government the defendant. Your burden of proof is all screwed up. You have to prove that government is doing something wrong, and most people here can’t made heads or tails of your nonsensical arguments. > Secondly, let’s just send this to the jury. Nobody here is going to vote to convict government, except for you, and as the judge, you don’t get a vote. Thirdly, you’re saying your polarity of vision is reversed. Fourthly you’re saying you see the world re: versed as if imaged through a looking glass. In truth I am saying liberty a.k.a. peaceful and well regulated pursuit of happiness is an inalienable and basic and inviolable and natural and nonnegotiable and nontransferable and sacrosanct and unassailable and untransferable et cetra etc. etc. and self-retained [right in the spirit of justice and morality.](http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/right?page=2&qsrc=12) In the spirit of justice, the defendant retains full right to further appeal denial of liberty. Seeking freedom in the court of justice is not the same as seeking government conviction. What do you know of the mark off guilty conscience? Please forgive. In the court of justice, well-governed prosecution always carries the full burden of proof. That government tends to construe power as right does not make it so. The self-retained right of liberty always holds precedence over tyranny. No just government holds the right to construe law to deny or disparage liberty and justice equal for all. At least that is the whey with me. end the plague of persecution let my people freely go ItS peace r~ \*\* kangaroo is not the same as the spirit of justice \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/88 "2009-11-23T20:43:27Z")
“To this general answer, the general reply ought to be sufficient, that liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as by the abuses of power; that there are numerous instances of the former as well as of the latter; and that the former, rather than the latter, are apparently most to be apprehended by the United States.” Federalist Number 63 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/89 "2009-11-23T20:50:24Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > Please forgive. No. You continue to refuse to answer my questions. You continue to refuse to engage in honest debate, instead simply repeating the same crap. You don’t explain yourself, you don’t recognize that rights are not absolute, and you simply spew garbage. So, no. I won’t forgive. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/90 "2009-11-23T20:53:52Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > The Supreme Court announced it will hear a challenge to [Chicago’s gun ban.](http://www.wbez.org/Content.aspx?audioID=37153) > > It seems to me that the right to pursue and protect health and property is one retained by the people. > > Does government hold the right to construe law to deny or disparage liberty? > Are governments instituted to secure these inalienable rights for all? > > peace > rwjefferson > > power is not the same as right Why did I know before even opening this thread that it would involve guns? Granted, there was an outside chance it was about health care, but the odds were against it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493/91 "2009-11-23T21:28:21Z")
Nonsense is not the same as conversation. The cycle is closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-government-hold-the-right-to-deny-or-disparage-liberty/512493.md?page=4)