# Does Heinlein's "The Door Into Summer" have a pedophile vibe? (spoilers obviously) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939 "2010-04-04T19:21:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/1 "2010-04-04T19:21:45Z")
I just read this golden age science fiction story for the first time. While classic Heinlein, it does have a plot element that’s a bit strange where the hero, a grown 30 year old man, is very sincerely and deliberately promising an 11 year old girl who is in love with him, and whom he is in love with, that he will marry her when she is 21. There is both ageless cold sleep hibernation, and time travel involved so when they finally get married and have sexual relations (and children) she is 21 (physically) and he is 30 (physically) . I should note that he has never met her as an adult before making this promise, all this planning to marry is all based strictly on his current love for her as a 30 year old man for an 11 year old child. The mariage promise scene stuck me as a bit oogy. Was there anyone who noted this was a bit weird that when the story came out in the late 50’s, or was pedo sensitivity not so pronounced back then? > [@](#): > > ``` > "And I am. I have to. But, Ricky, here is what you can do. Be a good girl, go live with your grandmama, go to school-and just let this money pile up. When you are twenty-one-if you still want to see us-you'll have enough money to take the Long Sleep yourself. When you wake up I'll be there waiting for you. Pete and I will both be waiting for you. That's a solemn promise." > > Her expression changed but she did not smile. She thought about it quite a long time, then said, "You'll really be there?" > > "Yes. But we'll have to make a date. If you do it, Ricky, do it just the way I tell you. You arrange it with the Cosmopolitan Insurance Company and you make sure that you take your Sleep in the Riverside Sanctuary in Riverside...and you make very sure that they have orders to wake you up on the first day of May, 2001, exactly. I'll be there that day, waiting for you. If you want me to be there when you first open your eyes, you'll have to leave word for that, too, or they won't let me farther than the waiting room-I know that sanctuary; they're very fussy." I took out an envelope which I had prepared before I left Denver. "You don't have to remember this; I've got it all written out for you. Just save it, and on your twenty-first birthday you can make up your mind. But you can be sure that Pete and I will be there waiting for you, whether you show up or not." I laid the prepared instructions on the stock certificate. > > I thought that I had her convinced but she did not touch either of them. She stared at them, then presently said, "Danny?" > > "Yes, Ricky?" > > She would not look up and her voice was so low that I could barely hear her. But I did hear her. "If I do ...will you marry me?" > > My ears roared and the lights flickered. But I answered steadily and much louder than she had spoken. "Yes, Ricky. That's what I want. That's why I'm doing this." > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/2 "2010-04-04T19:24:35Z")
Haven’t read much Heinlein, have you? You should be thankful she isn’t actually his mother. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/3 "2010-04-04T19:26:47Z")
Yeah. I think Heinlein’s plan was to show that there are people who are exactly right for each other, and in a time-travel story he was showing that even generational barriers can be broken down when two people meant for each other meet. But the way it came off, it was pretty squicky. Having the main character being clearly in love with a ten year old child is pretty far outside of societal norms, and even the ‘out’ of having her grow up before the love is consummated doesn’t make up for the pedophilic vibe it gives off. I do think it was unintentional. I don’t think Heinlein was a pedophile, and I don’t think he meant to suggest that pedophilia was even remotely okay. It was just an exploration of the ramifications of time travel that didn’t work. That said, Heinlein was certainly more sexually adventurous than most people. He skirted the boundaries of sexual convention in his writing many times, including incest and other unsavory topics. There are indications that in real life he and his wife were ‘swingers’. And he never had children, so he couldn’t relate as a parent. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/4 "2010-04-04T19:37:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Haven’t read much Heinlein, have you? > > You should be thankful she isn’t actually his mother. Not a ton. In a different “golden age” story I was surprised to see a huge (practically pornographic, and no I’m not over-stating it) incest vibe in the science fiction classic “Children Of The Lens” by E.E. “Doc” Smith of Kinnison “penetrating” his mother’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/5 "2010-04-04T19:41:03Z")
Who is that writer who includes such subplots in just about every single novel of his? Piers Anthony? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/6 "2010-04-04T19:49:00Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Not a ton. In a different “golden age” story I was surprised to see a huge (practically pornographic, and no I’m not over-stating it) incest vibe in the science fiction classic “Children Of The Lens” by E.E. “Doc” Smith of Kinnison “penetrating” his mother’s mind. It’s rumored that the “unwritten” 7th Lensman story involved a nice group marriage between the same Kit Kinnison (who’d penetrated his mom’s mind) and his 4 sisters. They had all been the product of millenia-long breeding to eliminate all the bad genes, after all. Heinlein had reportedly read Smith’s notes and discussed the story with Smith. But yeah, Heinlein was more than a bit of a perv. I found his parent-child incest scenarios (Lazarus Long and his mom, Lazarus and his “clone sibling-daughters”, Lazarus’ dad with Laz’s sister) waaaay squicky. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/7 "2010-04-04T20:45:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Haven’t read much Heinlein, have you? > > You should be thankful she isn’t actually his mother. Or actually his thousand-year old trannie grandfather. Yeah, a lot of Heinlein’s work contains some edgy sexualities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/8 "2010-04-04T21:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Who is that writer who includes such subplots in just about every single novel of his? Piers Anthony? Not all of them by any means. But a number of Anthony’s more recent books have had controversial subplots. The most notorious was _Firefly_, a SF/horror novel which does have what are reportedly explicit scenes with pre-teen children initiating sex with adults and other children. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/9 "2010-04-04T21:26:27Z")
Wow. This was my favorite book as a kid (it and, for some reason, **A Fall of Moondust** ). I read it a thousand times, er, give or take. I re-read it a couple of years ago just for nostalgia’s sake. I never once found it oogy or squicky or creepy. It never ever dawned on me that there was a pedophilia subtext. It never crossed my mind, not even for a split second. I’m not naive either. I had way too much first-hand experience with pedophilia as a child. I did this: :eek:😕 when I saw the Subject Line. I guess, without even thinking about it, I assumed that he assumed that she would change her mind and either not show up, or just want to be friends while experiencing the future with him. Man, now I have to read it again. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/10 "2010-04-04T21:36:34Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I just read this golden age science fiction story for the first time. While classic Heinlein, it does have a plot element that’s a bit strange where the hero, a grown 30 year old man, is very sincerely and deliberately promising an 11 year old girl who is in love with him, and whom he is in love with, that he will marry her when she is 21. There is both ageless cold sleep hibernation, and time travel involved so when they finally get married and have sexual relations (and children) she is 21 (physically) and he is 30 (physically) . I should note that he has never met her as an adult before making this promise, all this planning to marry is all based strictly on his current love for her as a 30 year old man for an 11 year old child. > > The mariage promise scene stuck me as a bit oogy. Was there anyone who noted this was a bit weird that when the story came out in the late 50’s, or was pedo sensitivity not so pronounced back then? The book came out the year after **Lolita**. Compared to it, **The Door into Summer** was quite chaste. I recall Michael Cassutt said the book was unfilmable, and had the same objections as you. When I read his column, it actually took me a bit to figure out what he was talking about, since there was no suggestion of physical contact in the book. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/11 "2010-04-04T22:01:21Z")
Read Silverberg’s _[The World Inside](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside)_. > [@](#): > > The Urbmons are a world of total sexual freedom where men are expected to engage in “night walking”; it is considered a crime for a woman to refuse an invitation for sex. **In this world it is a blessing to have children: most people are married at 12 and parents at 14.** ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/12 "2010-04-04T22:19:02Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Read Silverberg’s _[The World Inside](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside)_. > [@](#): > > The Urbmons are a world of total sexual freedom where men are expected to engage in “night walking”; it is considered a crime for a woman to refuse an invitation for sex. In this world it is a blessing to have children: most people are married at 12 and parents at 14. I don’t go for the smilies but this is one case where about six of them would apply – gee, I wonder what frustrated aspect of the fanboy demographic this was pandering to . . . . No feminist I, but it’s a reminder of what a significant proportion of “free love utopia” stuff seems to have been originated within the mind of creepy dudes who wanted a dogmatic basis for getting action they couldn’t otherwise get . . . . ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/13 "2010-04-04T23:14:23Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Wow. This was my favorite book as a kid (it and, for some reason, **A Fall of Moondust** ). I read it a thousand times, er, give or take. I re-read it a couple of years ago just for nostalgia’s sake. I never once found it oogy or squicky or creepy. It never ever dawned on me that there was a pedophilia subtext. It never crossed my mind, not even for a split second. I’m not naive either. I had way too much first-hand experience with pedophilia as a child. > > I did this: :eek:😕 when I saw the Subject Line. > > I guess, without even thinking about it, I assumed that he assumed that she would change her mind and either not show up, or just want to be friends while experiencing the future with him. > > Man, now I have to read it again. Jesus. I’d agree with you here. Been a while since I read it, but it always struck me that Dan was only doing a “Sure sure, kid. Whatever you want.” He saw it all as a schoolgirl’s crush and that by the time the he’d have to fulfill the promise – if that time ever came – Ricky would have moved on. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/14 "2010-04-04T23:30:43Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I’d agree with you here. Been a while since I read it, but it always struck me that Dan was only doing a “Sure sure, kid. Whatever you want.” He saw it all as a schoolgirl’s crush and that by the time the he’d have to fulfill the promise – if that time ever came – Ricky would have moved on. That characterization might be plausible if there wasn’t also this just before the marriage promise scene. > [@](#): > > But I did look at her. Knobby knees, stringy, shooting up fast, not yet filled out, she was not as pretty as she had been as a baby girl. The shorts and T-shirt she was wearing, combined with peeling sunburn, scratches, bruises, and an understandable amount of dirt, did not add up to feminine glamour. She was a matchstick sketch of the woman she would become, her coltish gawkiness relieved only by her enormous solemn eyes and the pixie beauty of her thin smudged features. > > She looked adorable. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/15 "2010-04-04T23:32:23Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I’d agree with you here. Been a while since I read it, but it always struck me that Dan was only doing a “Sure sure, kid. Whatever you want.” He saw it all as a schoolgirl’s crush and that by the time the he’d have to fulfill the promise – if that time ever came – Ricky would have moved on. I’m glad I’m not the only one! He was very fond of her, she was a cool, smart kid, but he was humoring her about the getting married bit. Look, if the guy were a pedophile, he would have wanted her to stay her age. Take the Sleep with him NOW, so she’d be young in the future, and they could pass themselves off as father and daughter with no one the wiser. **astro** , do you think the Time Traveler in _The Time Traveler’s Wife_ is a pedophile too? (I’m only going by the movie, I haven’t read the book. In the movie he meets the kid, then tells her where and when they’ll meet up in the future, so they can have a relationship and get married.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/16 "2010-04-05T00:10:59Z")
Spider Robinson did something similar in [_Variable Star_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Star) (based on an old 8-page outline found in Heinlein’s effects, which he never turned into a novel). ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/17 "2010-04-05T00:30:11Z")
> [@astro](#): > > That characterization might be plausible if there wasn’t also this just before the marriage promise scene. > [@](#): > > But I did look at her. Knobby knees, stringy, shooting up fast, not yet filled out, she was not as pretty as she had been as a baby girl. The shorts and T-shirt she was wearing, combined with peeling sunburn, scratches, bruises, and an understandable amount of dirt, did not add up to feminine glamour. She was a matchstick sketch of the woman she would become, her coltish gawkiness relieved only by her enormous solemn eyes and the pixie beauty of her thin smudged features. > > She looked adorable. From [Answers.com](http://Answers.com): adj. 1. Delightful, lovable, and charming: an adorable set of twins. 2. Worthy of adoration. I never equated “adorable” with “sexually desirable”. I have no sexual interest in pre-pubescent girls, but I have seen some that I would probably consider adorable in the sense of being delightful or charming. I’ve even occasionally thought that when they got older they’d probably have to beat boys off with a stick, without thinking that I should make a note of looking them up when they attained legal age. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/18 "2010-04-05T00:42:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Read Silverberg’s _[The World Inside](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside)_. _The World Inside_ is a very black satire of what rejecting the zero population growth movement that was beginning might mean. The Urbmons have 75 billion people in giant skyscrapers living in what’s supposed to be a utopia. It’s really a dystopia that comments on almost everything about early 70’s society. I can’t tell whether you didn’t understand this or not, but let me assure Huerta88 that you can’t read anything it says totally straight any more than you can read \*Lolita \*that way. _The Door Into Summer_ is such a bad book that I’ve given up trying to figure out whether Heinlein meant what he wrote in it. All the females in the book are horrifying caricatures of humanity. It’s the pciture in the dictionary next to “examples of sickening sexism in sf of the 50s.” Is it consciously or unconsciously so? Beats me. It’s still really ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/19 "2010-04-05T00:51:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > _The Door Into Summer_ is such a bad book that I’ve given up trying to figure out whether Heinlein meant what he wrote in it. All the females in the book are horrifying caricatures of humanity. It’s the pciture in the dictionary next to “examples of sickening sexism in sf of the 50s.” Is it consciously or unconsciously so? Beats me. It’s still really ugly. I haven’t read ‘‘The Door into Summer’’ but I agree with your assessment of how Heinlein writes females. I can’t stand his stuff for that reason. Judging by the quoted bits in this thread, the protagonist was humoring a little girl. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/20 "2010-04-05T01:24:31Z")
I really can’t see anything squicky in it at all. The protagonist arranges matters such that, first, it’ll be entirely Ricky’s decision what will happen, and second, that Ricky will be an adult and have had plenty of time to consider before she makes that decision. 11-year-old Ricky didn’t have to make any decision at all on the matter, and 21-year-old Ricky is a fully-consenting adult. As for the promise to marry, there’s two things to note: First, it was Ricky who suggested it, not Dan. Second, at that point in the story, Dan’s just been through some very bad turns, and at that moment, there are only two other people in the Universe he really believes he can trust, and the other one is a cat. Under the circumstances, it would seem quite natural to him that he would be willing to marry a grown-up Ricky, since he’s been burned too badly to marry anyone else. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939.md?page=2)