# Does Heinlein's "The Door Into Summer" have a pedophile vibe? (spoilers obviously) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 4, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939 "2010-04-04T19:21:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/61 "2020-04-13T04:03:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, that part might be messed up, but it’s messed up on Ricky’s part, not on Dan’s. Except that she’s clearly written as being the love of Dan’s life, and Dan’s ideal partner. Not as somebody who’s been badly messed up ever since she was 11, and needs treatment. IIRC, Dan takes it as further proof of her devotion to him, which he’s in favor of. Not as the sort of danger signal that means ‘run! run fast! call the therapists for her, but run!’ ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/62 "2020-04-13T17:05:27Z")
By contrast, the way Dan Simmons handled a similar setup in _The Rise of Endymion_, it got free of the creep factor, because there the woman is in charge and exercising her own agency. Aenea is 16, she is tuned into the ultimate power and intelligence of the universe (the Void Which Binds), and knowing her destiny lies with Endymion though he’s several years her senior, she sends him traveling on starship missions (to age slower relatively) while she develops into a master architect on Earth and turns 21 years old. Then they engage as equals. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/63 "2020-04-13T17:23:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Point taken; but I remember a sector in _The Number of the Beast_, where, after Zeb and Dejah Thoris get married, and Jake (Deetee’s dad) and Hilda get married, both brides get pregnant on their wedding nights (_night_, rather, because IIRC, it was a double wedding in a Las Vegas-style chapel). And then, because pregnancy isn’t a possibility any longer, they all decide that it’s okay for them to swap spouses for a night. And I don’t mean the kind of swapping where Hilda and Deetee pair up, and Jake and Zeb do the same. > > I also seem to recall a Heinlein tale (sorry, there’s no way I can remember the name of the story) about a spaceman being warned away from a whole planet because everybody else in the galaxy was too squicked out about that planet’s cultural norm of father-daughter coupling. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > That’s a Sturgeon tale - “If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?” Ah. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/64 "2020-04-13T17:34:25Z")
I can’t think of any way to insert myself into that situation without getting massively ooged out. What if when I was ten, an older woman accepted my promise to marry her when I was of age, not as a “humoring the kid” thing, but because she found me attractive enough to marry as an adult? What if I imagine myself in the role of the adult making the promise? What if someone made such a promise to my own kid? Incredibly gross on all counts. I know, I know, different times and different norms, but that’s only gonna take it so far. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/65 "2020-04-13T17:37:31Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “who refers to the act of human procreation as boinking?” “I’ve had my share of losers, but you… you boinked the undead!” ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/66 "2020-04-13T18:16:34Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > \*“who refers to the act of human procreation as boinking?” Ahem. This is a thread about _The Door Into Summer_, not _Moonlighting_. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/67 "2020-04-13T19:15:05Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In Heinlein books in general, the decision is always left explicitly up to the women whether they want to sleep with the main character. > > And according to the author: they always, always, always want to do so. Not exactly. There’s a squicky scene in “The Cat who Walks through Walls” where the heroine is raped. She “remembers” her training that the willing can’t be raped (aaaacckk) and enthusiastically participates instead. Might as well have fun with it, you know? (We need more smilies. A barf face is required.) I still remember “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” fondly, but I’ve been reluctant to re-read it because overall Heinlein is [del]disgusting[/del] [del]repulsive[/del] bad. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/68 "2020-04-13T19:36:50Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > Not exactly. There’s a squicky scene in “The Cat who Walks through Walls” where the heroine is raped. She “remembers” her training that the willing can’t be raped (aaaacckk) and enthusiastically participates instead. Might as well have fun with it, you know? (We need more smilies. A barf face is required.) > > . I think you mean “Friday” (unless I’m forgetting something from Cat Who Walks Through Walls). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/69 "2020-04-13T19:53:39Z")
I read a lot of Heinlein in college a long long time ago. Every one of his books had a grumpy old man, nubile young women, and lots of free sex. Didn’t mind that because the stories outside of that theme in EVERY book was good; right up to … what came in the timline after Time Enough For Love, when he was trying to put all of his various story timelines into one “cohesive” universe? That’s when the story-telling got bad. That being said, loved loved loved “Job - a Comedy of Justice”, and highly recommend that to anyone who enjoys Heinlein’s writing style. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/70 "2020-04-13T20:58:35Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > I read a lot of Heinlein in college a long long time ago. Every one of his books had a grumpy old man, nubile young women, and lots of free sex. It may be part of the reason Heinlein’s juveniles still hold up relatively well. For obvious reasons they tend _not_ to follow that formula and don’t squick out modern audiences nearly as much. The Heinlein stock characters certainly show up, but generally de-coupled and sex is at most alluded to and toned down to a gentle level( i.e. the conversation about the hobby of breeding John Thomases in _The Star Beast_ ). ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/71 "2020-04-13T20:59:32Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I think you mean “Friday” (unless I’m forgetting something from Cat Who Walks Through Walls). I think it happened at the beginning. I’m trying to decide if I want to look and see. Decisions, decisions. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/72 "2020-04-13T21:27:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > It may be part of the reason Heinlein’s juveniles still hold up relatively well. Have you looked at Podkayne of Mars recently? I read it again, maybe about ten years ago. I’m of the opinion that one never, never burns books, because of the political connotations; but, under extreme provocation only, it’s permissible to throw one in the trash. I’ve thrown out about three books in my life. Podkayne of Mars was one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/73 "2020-04-13T22:52:56Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think it happened at the beginning. I’m trying to decide if I want to look and see. Decisions, decisions. It’s definitely _Friday_. She ends the book in a loving intimate relationship with the most “enjoyable” of the rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/74 "2020-04-13T23:05:48Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think it happened at the beginning. I’m trying to decide if I want to look and see. Decisions, decisions. Definitely Friday then. The early part of Cat Who Walks Through Walls is pretty good. Friday starts with a rape (it’s what most people remember about the book). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/75 "2020-04-13T23:14:16Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Definitely Friday then. The early part of Cat Who Walks Through Walls is pretty good. Friday starts with a rape (it’s what most people remember about the book). Oops. Let’s just say I agree with Alessan. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/76 "2020-04-14T00:11:57Z")
My recollection of the rape in Friday is that it was told from the women’s perspective. She was an operative who got caught by the Other Side, and was annoyed that they did the rape thing, “buncha amateurs” kinda, while internalizing the hurt and hatred and remembering everyone’s face for later (obviously to kill them). She much later ran into one of the helpers (not rapers) IIRC and came this close to killing him before thinking better of it. Again IIRC, all but that one ended up dead right after the rape. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/77 "2020-04-14T00:30:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Something is horribly messed up there. It is called grooming. The action of a pedophile. Using some time trick does not make it Ok. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/78 "2020-04-14T02:57:47Z")
Yeah, when Heinlein goes bad, it’s usually by either too much sex, or too much politics, and the juvies have both scaled way back. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/79 "2020-04-14T03:18:40Z")
A thread on a single book written 63 years ago gets 79 posts. A thread [on the nominees for best SF/F novel of the past year](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=893650) gets 40 responses, a dozen of them me desperately hoping for someone to talk about modern sf/f with. C’mon, y’all, read some new stuff! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939/80 "2020-04-14T06:43:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A thread on a single book written 63 years ago gets 79 posts. A thread [on the nominees for best SF/F novel of the past year](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=893650) gets 40 responses, a dozen of them me desperately hoping for someone to talk about modern sf/f with. > > C’mon, y’all, read some new stuff! 🙂 I don’t read sci-fi any more. The most recent sci-fi novel I’ve read was _ **Blindsight** _, which i didn’t particularly care for. (I stopped reading sci-fi regularly about the time I stopped listening to pop music, repulsed by the godawful sameness of the music and the godawful exploitative behavior of the studios.) Both sci-fi and pop music are things for the young, in my opinion, when one has the passion to sit up all night arguing about things and the juvenile lust for power that “one hero to save the galaxy” plotlines appeal to. I should also say that late-period Heinlein is one of the things that killed sci-fi for me, especially _ **Friday** _, the first book ever I didn’t finish. What a relief it was to set that thing down and never pick it up again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinleins-the-door-into-summer-have-a-pedophile-vibe-spoilers-obviously/534939.md?page=5)