# Does Heinz have any legal recourse for cheap ketchup in its bottles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562 "2001-08-28T18:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/1 "2001-08-28T18:11:19Z")
Every once in a while, I’ll go for a meal at a local diner. As I turn the bottle over to pour a little out for my french fries (which, incidently, is the ONLY food that ketchup goes with - unless you’re a psycho!), I notice a very liquidy red substance pouring out. So I look at the bottle and it says Heinz. Now while I’m not a ketchup expert by any means, I know that this stuff is definitely not Heinz ketchup. Its some cheap no frills pathetic excuse for ketchup that diner management uses to fill its “Heinz” bottles. Now I think, Heinz cannot be happy about this. Some diner using its bottles to serve non-Heinz ketchup. First of all, it hurts Heinz’ reputation and secondly, the diner is buying ketchup from somebody other than Heinz. On first glance, it seems obvious that this should be illegal. But then I think: 1. Well, management must’ve purchased these Heinz bottles so the diner actually does own them (and presumably can do what it wants with them). 2. And management does not claim that the ketchup inside the bottle is actually Heinz ketchup. It’s merely ketchup (that management purchased) being served out a bottle (that management already owns). I’m sure that if you were to ask the management what type of ketchup it is, they would gladly tell you. And finally, 1. The diner is not actually selling the ketchup. It’s merely a condiment that a customer can choose to consume if he or she wishes to. If the ketchup was actually being sold, then I would see a clear case of false advertising. So, does the Heinz company have any legal recourse in this case? ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/2 "2001-08-28T18:18:52Z")
> [@](#): > > And management does not claim that the ketchup inside the bottle is actually Heinz ketchup. It’s merely ketchup (that management purchased) being served out a bottle (that management already owns). I’m sure that if you were to ask the management what type of ketchup it is, they would gladly tell you. By leaving the label on the bottle, the restaurant is declaring that the ketchup is, in fact, Heinz. Heinz has a cause of action. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/3 "2001-08-28T18:30:30Z")
What makes you think it isn’t Heinz catsup? I’ve seen catsup separate in Heinz bottles before and so I always shake up the bottle first to incorporate the runny watery part and then it all behaves as expected… the bottle might just have been sitting there for a while and not been used by anyone. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/4 "2001-08-28T18:35:40Z")
And the diner IS selling the ketchup. Use of the condiments is included in the price for the meal, and if the bottle says “Heinz Ketchup” on it, and appears to be ketchup, you have a reasonable expectation that “Heinz Ketchup” is, in fact, what’s in the bottle. You, as a patron, and Heinz both probably have a case. Whether it’s worth it for anybody to pursue is another question. Logically, as a single customer, your damages ought to be limited to the price of the meal if you feel that it was completely ruined by an inferior brand of red stuff. But, logic and law seem to meet only tangetially. I suspect it would only be worth legal action if a large resturaunt chain were doing this as a matter of policy. Of course, as usual, IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Montfort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Montfort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montfort)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/5 "2001-08-28T18:43:39Z")
So, if a restaurant uses Corona bottles as salt and pepper shakers, then Corona has a case? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/6 "2001-08-28T18:55:10Z")
No, since it’s obviously not beer in the bottles anymore, and you wouldn’t expect a bottle of Corona to be placed on the table as a condiment [sup]1[/sup]. The key would be that you reasonably expected the labelled brand of ketchup in the bottle. Of course, as suggested, it may actually have been Heinz Ketchup that separated from standing for a long time. [sup]1[/sup] - I might observe that practically any substance placed in a Corona bottle is an improvement on the original contents anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/7 "2001-08-28T19:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dolphinboy \* > \*\*What makes you think it isn’t Heinz catsup? I’ve seen catsup separate in Heinz bottles before and so I always shake up the bottle first to incorporate the runny watery part and then it all behaves as expected… the bottle might just have been sitting there for a while and not been used by anyone. \*\* You know, that’s probably the trick that’s used. If someone ever complains they just say: “Oh the Heinz probably just separated. Let me get you another bottle.” At which point, they break out the real Heinz from the back. Anyway, for purposes of this discussion (and since I’ve experienced this numerous times), let’s assume that they really did pull the ol’ switch-a-roo. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/8 "2001-08-28T19:47:46Z")
To continue the hijack, Heinz writes about the new [Trap Cap](http://www.heinz.com/jsp/consumer_faq.jsp#6), where they explain, “Although the watery stuff occurs naturally in many pureed food products like ketchup, applesauce and mustard, we know that consumers would prefer not to deal with it at mealtime.” To return to JJ’s remit. Although I can’t think of the name to describe it, if we assume that a restaurant is putting an inferior ketchup in a Heinz bottle, Heinz would have a case of action. The restaurant would be diminishing the value of the brand Heinz, for although the restaurant purchased a bottle, they didn’t buy rights to the name “Heinz”, or any of its associated marks. This is part of what intellectual property means - you might purchase an object, but you don’t automaticcaly purchase rights that such an object embodies. ---
**Author:** ![Stella\_Fantasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/74df32/32.png) [@Stella\_Fantasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stella_Fantasia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/9 "2001-08-28T20:19:01Z")
I’m not sure how you’d go about proving that what was in the bottle wasn’t Heinz…I think that would be the hard part of a ketchup-based lawsuit. The commercials that claim that Heinz doesn’t have that watery stuff are just commercials & should be regarded accordingly. I used to work at a restaurant (I’ll say, for legal reasons, only that its name rhymed with "P.G.I. Pie Day’s) where we refilled Heinz ketchup bottles from a big plastic pouch o’ ketchup in the back, but the plastic pouch was full of…Heinz ketchup. It WAS occasionally watery, though, just like any other ketchup. I think the “magic” is in the new tops that Heinz puts on their squeeze bottles, not in the formulation itself. At a restaurant (or anyplace) where non-squeeze bottles are used, you’ll see that watery stuff… ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/10 "2001-08-28T22:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Stella_Fantasia \* > **I think the “magic” is in the new tops that Heinz puts on their squeeze bottles, not in the formulation itself** What magic? The tops _don’t_ prevent the “runny stuff” from leaking out. If you look at the top, there’s only a little bit of space to catch the watery part of the ketchup. The amount generated my MY Heinz ketchup by FAR exceeds the capacity of this miracle cap. On the other hand, I’ve always shaken my catsup before use anyway, so it doesn’t really matter that it doesn’t work. Hunts catsup/ketchup is just as good, anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/11 "2001-08-29T01:16:00Z")
Using ANY other ketchup than Heinz is a mortal sin, and you will burn in condiment Hell. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/12 "2001-08-29T01:32:26Z")
Just to add to **Stella** ’s response, I worked in a restaurant where we refilled the bottles (we had a neat manifold gadget that did a dozen bottles at a time). Our ketchup came from big cans, and was _usually_ Heinz. Occasionally other brands were used. The bottles all had a Line on the label that said something like, “For Restaurant Use Only - Not For Resale.” ---
**Author:** ![Screengazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Screengazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screengazer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/13 "2001-08-29T01:36:38Z")
I doubt if there is anything Heinz can do about it because once the diner buys the bottle, they can put anything in it they want, just as you can. Bars, in some areas, have been refilling top shelf bottles with well brand booze for years and feeding it to inebriated clients while charging top prices. It’s an old trick but the client is the one who has to bring charges because he thinks he is getting top booze when he is not. A customer at the diner might be able to press charges, but then again, he is not charged for the condiments directly, for they are provided gratis to entice customers in. He cannot file charges claiming to have been deceived. Again, it all goes back to the fact that the diner bought the bottles, so the bottles are his/theirs to do with as they please. Now, if the diner sells the refilled bottles, refilled with anything but Heinz, then there is fraud involved along with various health issues. Charges can be brought on that. Many small diners buy brand name condiments for their tables and refill the bottles out of gallon sized wholesale jugs in the back to save money. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/14 "2001-08-29T01:57:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Using ANY other ketchup than Heinz is a mortal sin, and you will burn in condiment Hell. > > 😃 \*\* Ummmm…what if \ SOMEone \ made their own out of pan roasted, home-grown tomatos? Will they burn in Hell too? Fenris, admitting to NOTHING until **Guin** answers, but admits that Hunt’s is just yukky. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/15 "2001-08-29T02:09:11Z")
Hmmm…never had homemade, so I can’t tell ya there. But, coming from Pittsburgh, those who buy Hunts are going to pay in the afterlife. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Whammo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Whammo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whammo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/16 "2001-08-29T02:21:46Z")
Homemade ketchup? Egads I’m glad YOU’RE not my dad! [sub]Son - But dad, I want McDonalds! Fenris - Oh you dont want mcdonalds! I’ll make you a real burger with greenpeppers and onions mixed in and its 2 inches thick and parsely potatoe wedges! We don’t eat mcdonalds around here!! Son, now crying - But the ketchups luuummmmmpy!!![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/17 "2001-08-29T02:30:00Z")
Since the possiblitily of eternal damnation lurks, everpresent in the background (given the lack of comfort I got from **Guin’s** non-answer) I’m not admitting to _anything_. But if I _were_ your dad, **Whammo** , I’d make you the best damned hamburger (with catsup, natch) you’d ever had. And you’d eat it too! There are starving children in Ethopia who’d be thrilled to get any burger, let alon one as good as this. And if you don’t eat it, you don’t get dessert. Big Daddy Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/18 "2001-08-29T02:41:57Z")
**Whammo** made me laugh. And remember **Fenris** , if you send him to bed without any dinner, his feet are made of corn chips (which he’d probably prefer to some old garden fresh tomato). ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/19 "2001-08-29T02:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beatle \* > **Just to add to Stella’s response, I worked in a restaurant where we refilled the bottles (we had a neat manifold gadget that did a dozen bottles at a time). Our ketchup came from big cans, and was _usually_ Heinz. Occasionally other brands were used.** I currently work in a restaurant, and I’m usually the one who refills the bottles. It’s always Heinz (I get the feeling that’s the only brand our distributer carries, though I don’t order it.), and it gets just as liquid as any other brand once it’s been sitting for a while. Not that they usually get that much chance to sit. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2001, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562/20 "2001-08-29T02:54:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut \* > **the bottle over to pour a little out for my french fries (which, incidently, is the ONLY food that ketchup goes with - unless you’re a psycho!)** Who died and made you Ketchup God? I pour ketchup on almost everything: potato chips, pizza, scrambled eggs. You name it. I also sprinkle salt on apple slices and water melon. You got a problem with that? You think I’m psycho? Talk to the voices in my head, they’ll set you straight!:p;) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-heinz-have-any-legal-recourse-for-cheap-ketchup-in-its-bottles/78562.md?page=2)