# Does her claim of Satanic influence make her less credible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549 "2014-02-17T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/21 "2014-02-17T18:34:40Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Well on a spectrum, I was hoping to use my experience to point out that occultism is indeed still practiced today in an organized fashion. Most of it is harmless, but, like with any religion, there is the possibility that some psychopath would get a hold of some more darker literature on magic, and use it as a part of their wish to experience power through murder. > > _\_ > > I’m more so wondering why no one believes that anyone practices the occult anymore. You seem to be equating practicing the occult with Satanism and Satanic sacrifices in your last sentence, which contradicts the first sentence or so of your statement. Which is it? No one is claiming that “the occult” isn’t practiced; just that they don’t buy into the idea that there’s any Satanic sacrifices, except some lone lunatic somewhere perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/22 "2014-02-17T18:39:00Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I’m more so wondering why no one believes that anyone practices the occult anymore. _No one_ here has said that. We are disputing unfounded innuendo linking murder that _might_ be ritualistic to any known alternate religious groups. I am old enough to remember the “Satanic Panic” that swept our nation, and was fueled by people “just asking questions”. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/23 "2014-02-17T18:52:17Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yeah, that’s just it. I don’t think anyone doubts that the occasional thrill killer has brought some Satanic BS into their thrill killing, or has owned a Satanic Bible–which does not advocate murder, BTW. Nor does anyone doubt that Anton LaVey exists, or that there are parties where goths play dress-up and make believe. What people do doubt, and rightly so, is that there are large scale murderous Satanic cults engaged in numerous ritual murders. > > As far as the woman in the OP goes, she seems crazy. The cops should investigate her story of course, but my hunch is she has not killed as many people as she is claiming, though she may have killed more than one. Even if she has killed a large number of people, this isn’t any more meaningful than “crazy killer kills people.” It doesn’t point to some large malevolent satanic organization. Well, exactly. And you took my enigmatic post exactly as I meant it. \>:-) ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/24 "2014-02-17T18:54:50Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > _hundreds and hundreds?_ Yes. I live in Minneapolis. We have one of the largest occult populations in the US. Not all are in organized, some are actively practicing and some a mere enthusiasts. But I do know I’ve met that many people who have occultists beliefs. We have that stupid Eckanar here too, Llewellen worldwide book publishers. I know, right now, at least two people who carry the title of high priest in an occult worship circle. Some are setians, some use the druidic texts, some like to use them all, like the Unitarians like to combine things. The parties are often large and not all are occultists, but some of the more wealthy occultists can afford to put them on in large venues and they use a lot of Goddess symbolism, owls, moons. You always see some Native influences there as well, drumming circles, fire tossers. People dress up in crazy costumes, not Goth at all, more festive. It’s a huge subculture here, believe it or not. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/25 "2014-02-17T18:56:18Z")
As far as the thread title goes, I’d say her claim makes her less credibly _sane_. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/26 "2014-02-17T18:58:30Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > [ > I was reading the comments section and due her her claims of Satanism, many people thought she was lying. Also there were implications that those kinds of groups don’t exist. If by “those kinds of groups” you mean murderous, American, occult groups, they don’t, in fact, exist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/27 "2014-02-17T19:01:38Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Yes. I live in Minneapolis. We have one of the largest occult populations in the US. > > Not all are in organized, some are actively practicing and some a mere enthusiasts. But I do know I’ve met that many people who have occultists beliefs. We have that stupid Eckanar here too, Llewellen worldwide book publishers. > > I know, right now, at least two people who carry the title of high priest in an occult worship circle. Some are setians, some use the druidic texts, some like to use them all, like the Unitarians like to combine things. The parties are often large and not all are occultists, but some of the more wealthy occultists can afford to put them on in large venues and they use a lot of Goddess symbolism, owls, moons. You always see some Native influences there as well, drumming circles, fire tossers. People dress up in crazy costumes, not Goth at all, more festive. It’s a huge subculture here, believe it or not. Sounds like what you’re describing is mostly neopaganism. It does not involve ritual abuse or sacrifices, human or animal. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/28 "2014-02-17T19:02:35Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Yes. I live in Minneapolis. We have one of the largest occult populations in the US. > > Not all are in organized, some are actively practicing and some a mere enthusiasts. But I do know I’ve met that many people who have occultists beliefs. We have that stupid Eckanar here too, Llewellen worldwide book publishers. > > I know, right now, at least two people who carry the title of high priest in an occult worship circle. Some are setians, some use the druidic texts, some like to use them all, like the Unitarians like to combine things. The parties are often large and not all are occultists, but some of the more wealthy occultists can afford to put them on in large venues and they use a lot of Goddess symbolism, owls, moons. You always see some Native influences there as well, drumming circles, fire tossers. People dress up in crazy costumes, not Goth at all, more festive. It’s a huge subculture here, believe it or not. Let me get this straight: You know hundreds and hundreds of Satanists/Occultists in Minneapolis and its visitors, and you know all these details about their backgrounds, their more specific beliefs and practices, and in some cases the highest leaders. I’ve lived in LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Boston… I don’t know 10 practicing Satanists (who have revealed it to me). And I’m talking through the late 70s-80s even when it was more prominent., at least in California. As a matter of fact, I don’t think I know hundreds and hundreds of \*people \* that I know all that much about. Who \*are \*you? Do you credentials, reliable statistics, on any of this? ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/29 "2014-02-17T19:07:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You seem to be equating practicing the occult with Satanism and Satanic sacrifices in your last sentence, which contradicts the first sentence or so of your statement. Which is it? > > No one is claiming that “the occult” isn’t practiced; just that they don’t buy into the idea that there’s any Satanic sacrifices, except some lone lunatic somewhere perhaps. Right, I get that. But even though we know she’s an isolated case, would one be prejudiced to first think she was lying because of her claim? Just stickin up for the rights of Satanists here man. They need your attention. LOL I’m kidding. I guess my beef was that like I said earlier, I worked with a woman who was abused as a child by parents who practiced Satanism. She is a lovely person and never, ever talked about what happened. I asked the psychiatrist if she was telling the truth and he said yes, absolutely. While rare, these things do occur. Many of the staff treated her poorly and seemed annoyed by the notes in her history (she never talked about it, just came in around ritual days). She just read in her room, and we made sure she felt safe. I find it sad that while it’s true for the most part it doesn’t happen on a grand scale, it certainly can still happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/30 "2014-02-17T19:14:43Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Right, I get that. But even though we know she’s an isolated case, would one be prejudiced to first think she was lying because of her claim? > > Just stickin up for the rights of Satanists here man. They need your attention. LOL > > I’m kidding. I guess my beef was that like I said earlier, I worked with a woman who was abused as a child by parents who practiced Satanism. She is a lovely person and never, ever talked about what happened. I asked the psychiatrist if she was telling the truth and he said yes, absolutely. While rare, these things do occur. Many of the staff treated her poorly and seemed annoyed by the notes in her history (she never talked about it, just came in around ritual days). She just read in her room, and we made sure she felt safe. I find it sad that while it’s true for the most part it doesn’t happen on a grand scale, it certainly can still happen. Did this psychiatrist come across any other incidents of Satanic abuse? Can you give us anything of detail that could turn this from just another anecdote in a long line of anecdotes into actual evidence? ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/31 "2014-02-17T19:16:35Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Let me get this straight: You know hundreds and hundreds of Satanists/Occultists in Minneapolis and its visitors, and you know all these details about their backgrounds, their more specific beliefs and practices, and in some cases the highest leaders. > > I’ve lived in LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Boston… I don’t know 10 practicing Satanists (who have revealed it to me). And I’m talking through the late 70s-80s even when it was more prominent., at least in California. As a matter of fact, I don’t think I know hundreds and hundreds of \*people \* that I know all that much about. > > Who \*are \*you? Do you credentials, reliable statistics, on any of this? They never call themselves Satanists, but rather honor occultist texts. Okay, let’s try this, let’s look at how many occult related books are being sold by Llewellyn. > **[Since 1901 | Body, Mind & Spirit | Llewellyn Worldwide, Ltd.](https://www.llewellyn.com/)** > > As the world's oldest and largest independent publisher of books for body, mind, and spirit, Llewellyn has been dedicated to bringing our readers the very best in metaphysical books and resources since 1901. We have a few hundred thousand people here, I’d say that more than a few hundred would be buying these books. Someone is buying them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/32 "2014-02-17T19:17:12Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I’m kidding. I guess my beef was that like I said earlier, I worked with a woman who was abused as a child by parents who practiced Satanism. As has been asked, how is it that you have connections like this? Who are you to have access to supposed secrets like the ones you’ve related? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/33 "2014-02-17T19:18:40Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > But even though we know she’s an isolated case, would one be prejudiced to first think she was lying because of her claim? Lying or deluded. And it’s not “prejudiced”, it’s just taking into account that that’s what such claims always turn out to be. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/34 "2014-02-17T19:20:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did this psychiatrist come across any other incidents of Satanic abuse? Can you give us anything of detail that could turn this from just another anecdote in a long line of anecdotes into actual evidence? I don’t know. I can’t ask that for privacy purposes. But I do believe she experienced SRA. No, I certainly can’t prove anything, I just think it’s fair to observe that some of this may actually happen. Thanks for your comments…I gotta get going. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/35 "2014-02-17T19:22:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As has been asked, how is it that you have connections like this? Who are you to have access to supposed secrets like the ones you’ve related? Oh, I’m a psych nurse. We had a patient whose history of SRA was included in her notes. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/36 "2014-02-17T19:22:44Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > They never call themselves Satanists, but rather honor occultist texts. Okay, let’s try this, let’s look at how many occult related books are being sold by Llewellyn. > > [http://www.llewellyn.com/](http://www.llewellyn.com/) > > We have a few hundred thousand people here, I’d say that more than a few hundred would be buying these books. Someone is buying them. There’s just no response to this kind of reasoning that I care to make. It was an interesting thread, though. Believe anything! ~ tapu ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/37 "2014-02-17T19:23:33Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I don’t know. I can’t ask that for privacy purposes. But I do believe she experienced SRA. No, I certainly can’t prove anything, I just think it’s fair to observe that some of this may actually happen. > > Thanks for your comments…I gotta get going. When/if you come back, could you please try to bring some facts that might match your beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/38 "2014-02-17T19:25:15Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Oh, I’m a psych nurse. We had a patient whose history of SRA was included in her notes. Did this psychiatrist you mentioned come across any other satanic abuse cases? Have you? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/39 "2014-02-17T19:29:57Z")
IMHO (wrong forum, but …) She is setting up ground work for her defense - both as a ‘why’ and a possible “insanity” type of thing. Wether or not she was a member of a ‘satanic cult’ or if that is what drove her to do the killings becomes part of her ‘story’ - if there is no evidence, it speaks to her mental state - if there is some - it may also speak to her mental state. For those watching the events - the potential jury pool - it would be a potential ploy to poison the pool. as for the ‘reality’ of it - its difficult to say - ISTR that there was a huge report that there was no ‘such thing’ as ‘satanic cults’ and ‘ritualistic killing’ on any kind of scale other than the one offs (like this one may be). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/40 "2014-02-17T19:30:08Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I worked with a woman who was abused as a child by parents who practiced Satanism. She is a lovely person and never, ever talked about what happened. I asked the psychiatrist if she was telling the truth and he said yes, absolutely. Respectfully, either that doctor has committed an abhorrent violation of patient confidentiality or you have. But let’s assume that’s the case. What does it mean that the client’s parents “practiced Satanism?” Were they in some sort of organized cult? Were they members of an organized religion like the ToS or the CoS? Were they simply nutjobs who believed a real evil entity they called Satan spoke to them? > [@](#): > > While rare, these things do occur. Yes, abusers often claim justification for their abuse, and yes, sometimes they blame external forces, or magic, or demonic influence. There is, however, precisely zero evidence of any widespread underground murder cults. As to the organized groups, I’ve known a number of both registered and active LaVeyans and Setians, and I’ve had the (dubious) pleasure of meeting John Aquino. I know active pagans of all stripes, from garden-variety Wiccans to hardcore Aesirians to latter-day OTOs. They’re mostly cranks, to be honest. But not dangerous cranks, and no more likely than any other religionists to be murderers or abusers or jaywalkers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=3)