# Does her claim of Satanic influence make her less credible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549 "2014-02-17T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/41 "2014-02-17T19:30:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did this psychiatrist you mentioned come across any other satanic abuse cases? Have you? More to the point, might the notes on this patient be evidence of her delusions as opposed to a real history? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/42 "2014-02-17T19:32:12Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > I wonder, when she became leader of the satanic cult at 13, if her parents drove her to the meetings for the next 3 years… > When you think about the numbers she claims, the age range she was in, and probably lots more of logistics and practical considerations, this seems pretty damn far-fetched. Agreed. If she was 29, I might find the story a bit more believable. But the “Satanism” thing makes me doubt a lot of it right there. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/43 "2014-02-17T19:33:09Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Just stickin up for the rights of Satanists here man. They need your attention. LOL Actually, yanno what? I actually _will_ “stick up for the rights of Satanists.” I’m more than happy to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability (and when I falter, pass you along to other sources). Because I’m pretty sure you have no idea what you even mean when you use the word. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/44 "2014-02-17T19:34:45Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > They never call themselves Satanists, but rather honor occultist texts. Okay, let’s try this, let’s look at how many occult related books are being sold by Llewellyn. > > [http://www.llewellyn.com/](http://www.llewellyn.com/) > > We have a few hundred thousand people here, I’d say that more than a few hundred would be buying these books. Someone is buying them. But, Llewellyn does not appear to sell anything Satanist. You do understand, don’t you, that “occult” and “Satanist” are not synonymous? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/45 "2014-02-17T19:38:45Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Respectfully, either that doctor has committed an abhorrent violation of patient confidentiality or you have. Surely, patient-doctor confidentiality doesn’t extend so far that they can’t discuss their patients with their _nurses_? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/46 "2014-02-17T19:42:25Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Yeah, that’s just it. I don’t think anyone doubts that the occasional thrill killer has brought some Satanic BS into their thrill killing, or has owned a Satanic Bible–which does not advocate murder, BTW. Nor does anyone doubt that Anton LaVey exists, or that there are parties where goths play dress-up and make believe. What people do doubt, and rightly so, is that there are large scale murderous Satanic cults engaged in numerous ritual murders. > > As far as the woman in the OP goes, she seems crazy. The cops should investigate her story of course, but my hunch is she has not killed as many people as she is claiming, though she may have killed more than one. Even if she has killed a large number of people, this isn’t any more meaningful than “crazy killer kills people.” It doesn’t point to some large malevolent satanic organization. Sorry, but yes, this thread almost reads like a book from Mike Warnke. Who was roundly debunked as well. I agree with the others… it’s one thing to know people that dabble in occult practices, even on a large scale, and it’s another to believe that because of that, they’d necessarily then do vile and reprehensible things in the service of Satan. Even I’m the link provided, I’m not completely convinced that all of those who committed crimes were sincere in their “satanic” faith. Richard Ramirez, obviously, and perhaps the death metal case, but the rest? I typically chalk those up to young folks who wished to rebel, that in turn settled on something they thought was cool and the most out there thing ever, and then fed their insanity from there. As for the chick on the OP, I feel she’s setting up a defense that will paint her as the victim. All too much unsubstantiated rumors to ever he taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/47 "2014-02-17T19:43:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, Llewellyn does not appear to sell anything Satanist. > > You do understand, don’t you, that “occult” and “Satanist” are not synonymous? Besides, her claim wasn’t just that there might be hundreds of Satanists in the area: > [@arielburns](#): > > I personally have met hundreds and hundreds of occult practitioners and have been to hosted parties in art warehouses, cage dancers and snakes and rituals being performed. I have never seen anything devious, but I’ve heard of sexual rituals and blood rituals etc. These are well educated people. High society. It’s disturbing because most have alternate facebook profiles with their occult names and they don’t have pictures of themselves, but many pics are now showing up with blood dribbling down the lips (uses of sexual imagery and blood) – so call me a liar. They invite her(for ghod knows WHAT reason) to their secret parties, and they have alternate facebook profiles with their occult names and pictures with blood dribbling down their lips! _Spooooky!!_ Now unless she just happens to be the psychiatric nurse for all these famous Satanists/occultists, there is absolutely nothing stopping her from giving us the facts of the matter-I mean, why would she want to protect _them_ after trying to spread nasty rumors about these unnamed Satanists? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/48 "2014-02-17T19:46:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, Llewellyn does not appear to sell anything Satanist. > > You do understand, don’t you, that “occult” and “Satanist” are not synonymous? And that’s just the first lapse in the reasoning… If I read it right, it says that since a bunch of people (#number of sales not given) buy these books, and there are X number of people in Minnesota, then a subset of them, # proportionate to X, must buy these books. I’d love to put that in front of a beginning stats class. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/49 "2014-02-17T19:47:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Surely, patient-doctor confidentiality doesn’t extend so far that they can’t discuss their patients with their _nurses_? Bah. You’re right, of course, and don’t call me Shirley. My apologies, **arielburns**. Miller’s right that there is no reason the doc would not share the client’s situation with a nurse, or even that the nurse would not then share that information–stripped of client identifires–with strangers. What gets my back up is the idea that a doctor would say, unequivocally, that the patient was abused by parents who practiced Satanism. I have a lot of trouble believing that. I’m more than willing to believe that the doc would have said that the patient _was not lying_: that is, that she was telling the truth as she understood it. But to tell a colleague that, yup, her parents were practicing Satanism…that’s either bullshit or a lapse in ethical judgment IMO. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/50 "2014-02-17T19:59:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Bah. You’re right, of course, and don’t call me Shirley. > > My apologies, **arielburns**. Miller’s right that there is no reason the doc would not share the client’s situation with a nurse, or even that the nurse would not then share that information–stripped of client identifires–with strangers. > > What gets my back up is the idea that a doctor would say, unequivocally, that the patient was abused by parents who practiced Satanism. I have a lot of trouble believing that. I’m more than willing to believe that the doc would have said that the patient _was not lying_: that is, that she was telling the truth as she understood it. But to tell a colleague that, yup, her parents were practicing Satanism…that’s either bullshit or a lapse in ethical judgment IMO. Hmm, let’s say this physician believed that she was involved in ritual abuse. I assumed it was Satanic, I should clarify. No doctor would ever state the unprovable in medical documentation. Satanism is not provable, but ritual abuse can be defined. It is the practice of sexual abuse that includes rituals. And I was trying to say that the practice of rituals is known to me as well by some people I know who practice ritual magic. I’m just sayin…ritual killing was pretty big in some cultures. I’m trying to link it to part of the spectrum of human behavior. I think it would be a shame to dismiss this kind of behavior has completely vanished. ---
**Author:** ![Cognoscant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Cognoscant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cognoscant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/51 "2014-02-17T20:10:36Z")
I don’t know about “Satanic influence” making her story less credible, but I was very skeptical when I found out who broke the story in the local (Sunbury, PA) paper. A high school friend of mine who is an amateur sports photographer has had dealings with said reporter and claims he is a totally gullible moron who is exactly the kind of person who would fall for this kind of story. Media being what is it, the story made it around the world before anybody questioned it. [Read the original story](http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/x1708329322/BODY-COUNT-AT-22): see what’s missing? Barbour wasn’t telling the _court_ anything, she was telling the _reporter_ that she’d killed 22 people, and specifically said she hadn’t told the police that. I’m pretty sure the reporter got taken for a big ride and thought he’d hit the jackpot. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/52 "2014-02-17T20:11:00Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Hmm, let’s say this physician believed that she was involved in ritual abuse. I assumed it was Satanic, I should clarify. No doctor would ever state the unprovable in medical documentation. Satanism is not provable, but ritual abuse can be defined. It is the practice of sexual abuse that includes rituals. And I was trying to say that the practice of rituals is known to me as well by some people I know who practice ritual magic. I’m just sayin…ritual killing was pretty big in some cultures. I’m trying to link it to part of the spectrum of human behavior. I think it would be a shame to dismiss this kind of behavior has completely vanished. Why is the McMartin preschool case coming to mind here? Funny how they never found any of the caves, tunnels or airplanes the kids were talking about. You know, the ones where they were taken and subjected to ritual sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/53 "2014-02-17T20:11:37Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Hmm, let’s say this physician believed that she was involved in ritual abuse. I assumed it was Satanic, I should clarify. No doctor would ever state the unprovable in medical documentation. Satanism is not provable, but ritual abuse can be defined. It is the practice of sexual abuse that includes rituals. And I was trying to say that the practice of rituals is known to me as well by some people I know who practice ritual magic. I’m just sayin…ritual killing was pretty big in some cultures. I’m trying to link it to part of the spectrum of human behavior. I think it would be a shame to dismiss this kind of behavior has completely vanished. 1. Has the psychiatrist you mentioned come across other satanic abuse cases? 2. Why do _you_ get invited to all these satanic/occult get-togethers? 3. Why can’t you give us the names of famous people that are Satanists and/or have secret Facebook accounts under fake names(links would be just dandy), and how did _you_ acquire this information? ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/54 "2014-02-17T20:23:37Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Respectfully, either that doctor has committed an abhorrent violation of patient confidentiality or you have. > > But let’s assume that’s the case. What does it mean that the client’s parents “practiced Satanism?” Were they in some sort of organized cult? Were they members of an organized religion like the ToS or the CoS? Were they simply nutjobs who believed a real evil entity they called Satan spoke to them? > > Yes, abusers often claim justification for their abuse, and yes, sometimes they blame external forces, or magic, or demonic influence. > > There is, however, precisely zero evidence of any widespread underground murder cults. > As to the organized groups, I’ve known a number of both registered and active LaVeyans and Setians, and I’ve had the (dubious) pleasure of meeting John Aquino. I know active pagans of all stripes, from garden-variety Wiccans to hardcore Aesirians to latter-day OTOs. They’re mostly cranks, to be honest. But not dangerous cranks, and no more likely than any other religionists to be murderers or abusers or jaywalkers. John Aquino? Ah…how fortunate. Cranks, exactly. But people do practice ritualism. I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. They are very different in nature, I know that. Some occultists are more like Catholics in having positive outcomes from the ritual. I just tied occultism to Satanism because both of those have sects that use the darker arts. And personally I think that Satanic practice could be placed under the umbrella as an occult practice. I’m just saying, this girl says she practices Satanism, does that make her claim less believable that she killed more people and why. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/55 "2014-02-17T20:28:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Has the psychiatrist you mentioned come across other satanic abuse cases? > 2. Why do _you_ get invited to all these satanic/occult get-togethers? > 3. Why can’t you give us the names of famous people that are Satanists and/or have secret Facebook accounts under fake names(links would be just dandy), and how did _you_ acquire this information? Not that I know of Because I have friends that are occult practitioners, and they throw awesome parties. I could give you the links, but wouldn’t that be sort of nasty behavior on my part? They have a right to privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/56 "2014-02-17T20:28:58Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > John Aquino? Ah…how fortunate. Cranks, exactly. But people do practice ritualism. I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. They are very different in nature, I know that. Some occultists are more like Catholics in having positive outcomes from the ritual. I just tied occultism to Satanism because both of those have sects that use the darker arts. And personally I think that Satanic practice could be placed under the umbrella as an occult practice. I’m just saying, this girl says she practices Satanism, does that make her claim less believable that she killed more people and why. Are you dropping your lurid claims of secret satanic parties attended by famous people and alternate satanic Facebook accounts with blood dripping from mouths? Are you going to tell us about the qualifications of this psychiatrist that verified that someone has been through satanic abuse? Are you going to provide any evidence for _any_ of your claims? ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/57 "2014-02-17T20:32:16Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > John Aquino? Ah…how fortunate. Cranks, exactly. But people do practice ritualism. I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. They are very different in nature, I know that. Some occultists are more like Catholics in having positive outcomes from the ritual. I just tied occultism to Satanism because both of those have sects that use the darker arts. And personally I think that Satanic practice could be placed under the umbrella as an occult practice.\*\* I’m just saying, this girl says she practices Satanism, does that make her claim less believable that she killed more people and why. \*\* \ I’m thinking the answer to that is yes for pretty much everyone on here with us; and no, for you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/58 "2014-02-17T20:34:35Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Not that I know of > > Because I have friends that are occult practitioners, and they throw awesome parties. > > I could give you the links, but wouldn’t that be sort of nasty behavior on my part? They have a right to privacy. Do your friends know how you speak of them? BTW, if you were so concerned with their privacy why did you make all those accusations about them? You are beginning to sound like so many other “experts” that have popped up over the years-vivid with the claims, and slim with the facts. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/59 "2014-02-17T20:38:11Z")
Let me try again to get this straight: you personally have hundreds and hundreds of friends who practice the occult in some form, but I"m not getting that you are into it. It’s clear why DEA agents know tons of drug users, but not so clear why a nurse knows so very many people into the occult. Have you been involved in what must be dangerous infiltration to these groups, like for sociological or psychological research? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/60 "2014-02-17T20:39:52Z")
[How “just asking questions” and not backing up stories with facts can cause great harm.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=4)