# Does her claim of Satanic influence make her less credible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549 "2014-02-17T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/61 "2014-02-17T20:43:28Z")
Reminds me of the [West Memphis Three](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three) case as well. Being much younger (and more impressionable) at the time, a good portion of our town (and many towns in the area) bought into the fantastic stories of child sacrifice and satanism. Everybody “knew” such things were common practice. 20 years later, and we’ve got a lot of egg on our face, and some very likely innocent men are finally out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/62 "2014-02-17T21:00:20Z")
Actually, it’s pretty easy to find lots of stories of children being ritually abused: > **[Toddler's Exorcism Death Part of Dark History](https://www.livescience.com/37274-toddler-exorcism-death.html)** > > A father was convicted of killing his 2-year-old during an exorcism, revealing the reality and long history of belief in demonic possession and evil spirits. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/28/us-usa-exorcism-idUSBRE85R1MY20120628](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/28/us-usa-exorcism-idUSBRE85R1MY20120628) [http://globalministries.org/news/africa/exorcism-child-abuse-congo.html](http://globalministries.org/news/africa/exorcism-child-abuse-congo.html) It’s a lot harder to find hard evidence of _Satanic_ ritual child abuse, though - in all the stories I’ve found, it was Christians who were beating the shit out of their kids for religious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/63 "2014-02-17T21:00:28Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Satanism is not provable, but ritual abuse can be defined. It is the practice of sexual abuse that includes rituals. And I was trying to say that the practice of rituals is known to me as well by some people I know who practice ritual magic. But, how many magicians do you know whose rituals include abuse of victims, sexual or otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/64 "2014-02-17T21:01:33Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. But, you do understand that those spirits do not exist? ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/65 "2014-02-17T21:05:29Z")
A cursory review of Facebook and YouTube ( the twin hangouts for idiots who like to brag about their criminal activities) shows no videos or listings of anyone bragging about committing multiple murders. Even Twitter is woeful devoid of any such postings. Given that killing multiple people in a serial manner is exceptionally difficult in modern times (the police follow disappearances more closely and serial killers are no longer believed to exist only in the realm of supposition or fantasy) the fact that such an obvious looking weirdo could have killed that many people undetected seems improbable. That she added the unnecessary burden of “Satanism” to her tale makes it seem to be even more ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/66 "2014-02-17T21:07:23Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > John Aquino? Ah…how fortunate. Cranks, exactly. But people do practice ritualism. I think we all concede that. I and other Hebrews follow a sacred calendar, pray (generally in Hebrew) three times a day, wear ritual garments and ritually snip our sons’ penises when they are eight days old. Christianity has all sorts of rituals, a sacred language (generally but not always Latin), etc. > [@](#): > > I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. Nefarious spirits? OTTOMH of the pagans, neo pagans, and wiccans I’ve known, I can only think of one who ever attempted to raise a spirit for evil purposes (she wanted to curse the woman her husband was cheating with). The others do general spells for health, love, success etc. Whenever they want to cast a spell for my benefit, they always ask my permission first. ---
**Author:** ![Rowanchilde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Rowanchilde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rowanchilde)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/67 "2014-02-17T21:25:31Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > \*\*They never call themselves Satanists, but rather honor occultist texts. \*\*Okay, let’s try this, let’s look at how many occult related books are being sold by Llewellyn. > > [http://www.llewellyn.com/](http://www.llewellyn.com/) > > We have a few hundred thousand people here, I’d say that more than a few hundred would be buying these books. Someone is buying them. I must have at least 15 Llewellyn published books in my library and not one of them have anything to do with Satanism. You’re ill- informed and making assumptions… > [@arielburns](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/craigslist-thrill-killing-confession/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/justice/craigslist-thrill-killing-confession/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > > Most don’t call theirs Satanism, it’s well hidden under the guise of Temple of Set, for example. I personally have met hundreds and hundreds of occult practitioners and have been to hosted parties in art warehouses, cage dancers and snakes and rituals being performed. I have never seen anything devious, but I’ve heard of sexual rituals and blood rituals etc. These are well educated people. High society. It’s disturbing because most have alternate facebook profiles with their occult names and they don’t have pictures of themselves, but many pics are now showing up with blood dribbling down the lips (uses of sexual imagery and blood) – so call me a liar. Ha. Why do people think the occult is a spook story? > > I am not trying to draw a correlation between murder and other occult practices. Most occultists are not murderers. I am merely wondering why people resist the fact that it still goes on, and probably does so in places you’d least expect. Not just kids in basements. Attorneys, secretaries, advertising geeks etc. I’m not calling you a liar but honestly, I think you haven’t really an idea of what you’re talking about. You are using the words occult and occultist to deal specifically with Satanism. There are hundreds of different practices included in the word occult. Not only that, but most likely these large parties (not all) you have been invited too are usually hosted by sensationalists that are into the theatrics associated with them. Being well educated doesn’t exclude trying to be “one of the cool kids”. There \*are \*gatherings and rituals that are serious minded but either you’re not seeing them as intended or they are what I referred to above… As to the original question asked in this thread, the woman more likely has mental issues. That makes her less credible in my opinion. As far as I know, Satanism really hasn’t anything to do with ritual murders. It’s a philosophy (some don’t even consider it a religion) that has to do with egoism and individualism. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/68 "2014-02-17T21:26:29Z")
Even LaVey and his followers aren’t Satanists; they just use the label for shock value. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/69 "2014-02-17T21:43:56Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Because I have friends that are occult practitioners, and they throw awesome parties. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/70 "2014-02-18T00:14:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even LaVey and his followers aren’t Satanists; they just use the label for shock value. Who **is** a Satanist, then? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/71 "2014-02-18T00:26:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Who **is** a Satanist, then? I’m not entirely sure. But, I do agree with **Chronos**. Lavey basically teaches 'There is no God. There is no Devil. But we call ourselves Satanists to be cool, get attention and annoy people." ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/72 "2014-02-18T00:54:51Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m not entirely sure. But, I do agree with **Chronos**. Lavey basically teaches 'There is no God. There is no Devil. But we call ourselves Satanists to be cool, get attention and annoy people." I’ve read that he described his Satanism as “Objectivism with mysticism added.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/73 "2014-02-18T00:56:13Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Because I have friends that are occult practitioners, and they throw awesome parties. Me too, but nobody gets abused or sacrificed at their parties, nor at their rituals. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/74 "2014-02-18T00:58:00Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m not entirely sure. But, I do agree with **Chronos**. Lavey basically teaches 'There is no God. There is no Devil. But we call ourselves Satanists to be cool, get attention and annoy people." Or perhaps more charitably, “To fuck with people’s assumptions and preconceptions.” But yeah. The CoS and its offshoots are not at all what the layperson would think of as “Satanist,” and certainly not in the sense of “someone who worships the Christian entity Satan.” Which is another reason the OP is way off base when s/he conflates some mythical murder/abuse cults with the CoS or the ToS. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/75 "2014-02-18T01:12:07Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Most don’t call theirs Satanism, it’s well hidden under the guise of Temple of Set, for example. I personally have met hundreds and hundreds of occult practitioners and have been to hosted parties in art warehouses, cage dancers and snakes and rituals being performed. I have never seen anything devious, but I’ve heard of sexual rituals and blood rituals etc. These are well educated people. High society. It’s disturbing because most have alternate facebook profiles with their occult names and they don’t have pictures of themselves, but many pics are now showing up with blood dribbling down the lips (uses of sexual imagery and blood) – so call me a liar. Ha. Why do people think the occult is a spook story? I’ve known one person who was a member of the ToS and one or two who dabbled. Yes, there are Sex Magick and “Blood” Rituals. Big fucking deal. I haven’t worked any sex magick myself (a lot of it is very mundane and can be masterbatory, not group), but it is just another way of working rituals. The emotions and physical/mental high of it raising more ‘power’ and focus. I have performed blood rituals, using my own blood, not of others or of animals. For the record, I am not a member of ToS, a Satanist, and I don’t believe in an actual, literal “Satan”. > [@](#): > > I am not trying to draw a correlation between murder and other occult practices. Most occultists are not murderers. I am merely wondering why people resist the fact that it still goes on, and probably does so in places you’d least expect. Not just kids in basements. Attorneys, secretaries, advertising geeks etc. I would bet most of the people committing crimes and harming people in the name of ‘satanism’ are just fucking morons who think using that using that term in some way makes them cool, or if they actually believe in Satan, they foolishly believe that being a ‘satanist’ will spare them from what would be their true fate as murderers and all around shitty people (were Christianity and Satan true). (Hint: Only Satan gets to rule in Hell. You don’t.) ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/76 "2014-02-18T01:17:23Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Yes. I live in Minneapolis. We have one of the largest occult populations in the US. _snort_ No, no you don’t. You have a decent Circle or two, I’ll grant you that. But you aren’t close to the occult/neopagan capital of the US. > [@arielburns](#): > > I’m kidding. I guess my beef was that like I said earlier, I worked with a woman who was abused as a child by parents who practiced Satanism. She is a lovely person and never, ever talked about what happened. I asked the psychiatrist if she was telling the truth and he said yes, absolutely. While rare, these things do occur. Many of the staff treated her poorly and seemed annoyed by the notes in her history (she never talked about it, just came in around ritual days). She just read in her room, and we made sure she felt safe. I find it sad that while it’s true for the most part it doesn’t happen on a grand scale, it certainly can still happen. Now, this is a matter that’s actually worth more respect than the thread so far has accorded you, I think. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Satanism or with ritual abuse or Satanic murders. What it has to do with is how, as nurses, do we interact with our patients who may or may not be delusional. Do we try to find out “the truth,” by interviewing their families, looking through old newspaper records, trying to find old police reports? Or do we accept and reinforce their beliefs by telling them we believe them? Or do we not worry too much about whether their “delusions” are true, and instead teach them how to more effectively deal with the fears, anxiety, depression, self-harm and other maladaptive behaviors that they have due to their beliefs (whether they are true or not)? You will certainly find nurses and doctors in all three camps. Me, I’m the third kind. For example, I have a patient right now who insists she has bedbugs. I can’t find any evidence of bedbugs. The exterminator has been there several times and done several treatments for bedbugs. But I don’t particularly care if my patient really has bedbugs. That’s between her and her landlord and the exterminator. What I care about is helping her reduce her anxiety so that she can get a decent night’s sleep. I can teach her skin care and how and when to take antihistamines to reduce her itching - whether it’s bedbugs or anxiety, she itches, that is not in question. I can help her do those things whether or not there are really bedbugs in her bed. In fact, I _have to_, because even if she does have bedbugs, the exterminator may not be able to get rid of them for weeks or months, and it’s not practical to suggest she find a new place to sleep in the meantime. Could your patient have been a victim of child abuse by parents who identified as “Satanic”? Sure. Lots of patients have been victims of child abuse, by Christians, by Jews, by Atheists… Is it very likely? No, it isn’t, but that’s because there are only relatively few people who consider themselves Satanists, and lots more people who are just simply assholes who hurt their kids. Calling her parents Satanists may be a coping mechanism for her, if she needs to deny that her parents were assholes. Pin the blame on Satan, as it were. But really, that’s a matter between her and her doctors. Your job isn’t to be Dick Tracy and find out what really happened then. Your job is to teach her how to keep herself as safe and as healthy as possible _now_. WhyNot, Agnostic Neopagan occultist and Registered Nurse. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/77 "2014-02-18T01:21:49Z")
And that folks, is why I continue to respect **WhyNot**. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/78 "2014-02-18T01:27:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > And that folks, is why I continue to respect **WhyNot**. Resoundingly seconded. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/79 "2014-02-18T01:29:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Or perhaps more charitably, “To fuck with people’s assumptions and preconceptions.” > > But yeah. The CoS and its offshoots are not at all what the layperson would think of as “Satanist,” and certainly not in the sense of “someone who worships the Christian entity Satan.” > > Which is another reason the OP is way off base when s/he conflates some mythical murder/abuse cults with the CoS or the ToS. To make this more explicit: what if she’d said “I have performed 20 Christian murders”? Would that not hurt her credibility? Christianity doesn’t promote murder. Satanism also does not promote murder. The fact that she THINKS Satanism has murder rituals makes it more likely she is not a Satanist. And if she’s lying or deluded about that, then it makes sense she’s lying or deluded about the rest. Making false statements tends to hurt your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/80 "2014-02-18T01:35:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > To make this more explicit: what if she’d said “I have performed 20 Christian murders”? Would that not hurt her credibility? Christianity doesn’t promote murder. Satanism also does not promote murder. > > The fact that she THINKS Satanism has murder rituals makes it more likely she is not a Satanist. And if she’s lying or deluded about that, then it makes sense she’s lying or deluded about the rest. Making false statements tends to hurt your credibility. Well, to be fair – she **might** be a Satanist – of some new form she invented herself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=5)