# Does her claim of Satanic influence make her less credible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549 "2014-02-17T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/101 "2014-02-18T03:25:20Z")
Huh? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/102 "2014-02-18T05:14:14Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > But people do practice ritualism. Yes, they do. Catholics for example. But that doesn’t mean that there’s much of a chance that a Catholic priest is going to cap his performance of a wedding ritual by sacrificing the bride on the altar. You keep using the term “ritual” like rituals are something _weird and scary_ instead of an extremely common human behavior. They are all over the place; true, religions are full of them but they are quite common outside of religions too. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/103 "2014-02-18T05:31:39Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > They never call themselves Satanists, but rather honor occultist texts. Okay, let’s try this, let’s look at how many occult related books are being sold by Llewellyn. > > [http://www.llewellyn.com/](http://www.llewellyn.com/) > > We have a few hundred thousand people here, I’d say that more than a few hundred would be buying these books. Someone is buying them. Do you have any idea what the hell you’re talking about? What the hell does llewellyn have to do with Satanism? Even if there _were_ Satan worshippers who actually existed in the hundreds of hundreds of numbers, what gives you the idea that, by definition, people who worship Satan practice ritual murder? You are a bigot of the worst stripe, or a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/104 "2014-02-18T05:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I do understand that Satanism and occultism are different - but both includes the aspect of having rituals that serve to raise nefarious spirits which then have some sort of purpose for the practitioner. No, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/105 "2014-02-18T05:47:24Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > You are a bigot of the worst stripe, or a troll. Do not call other posters names or accuse them of trolling outside The BBQ Pit. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/106 "2014-02-18T15:07:16Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > And that folks, is why I continue to respect **WhyNot**. Can I ‘third’ this? Labeling a religion as ‘occult’ and therefore ‘scary’ is very limiting. The word ‘occult’ means ‘hidden’. This can mean that there are some aspects of the religion in question that are not openly promulgated among the uninitiated. The same can be said of Freemasonry and every single fraternity or sorority that I know of. Yes, there are Satanists. Some of them probably actually believe in Satan. I have never met one, yet, but doubtless they exist. There are also people who believe Star Trek was a documentary. These folks are usually refered to as delusional. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/107 "2014-02-18T15:25:36Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Can I ‘third’ this? > > Labeling a religion as ‘occult’ and therefore ‘scary’ is very limiting. The word ‘occult’ means ‘hidden’. This can mean that there are some aspects of the religion in question that are not openly promulgated among the uninitiated. The same can be said of Freemasonry and every single fraternity or sorority that I know of. > > Yes, there are Satanists. Some of them probably actually believe in Satan. I have never met one, yet, but doubtless they exist. **There are also people who believe Star Trek was a documentary. These folks are usually refered to as delusional.** (bolding mine) Hey - They’re not ALL “historical documents.” Surely, you don’t think Gilligan’s Island is a… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/108 "2014-02-18T15:26:51Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Can I ‘third’ this? > > Labeling a religion as ‘occult’ and therefore ‘scary’ is very limiting. The word ‘occult’ means ‘hidden’. This can mean that there are some aspects of the religion in question that are not openly promulgated among the uninitiated. The same can be said of Freemasonry and every single fraternity or sorority that I know of. Or Mormons, for that matter. And while I disagree with Mormon social beliefs, I don’t think I’d call Donny and Marie Satanists. Or Occultists, either. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/109 "2014-02-18T16:01:46Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Why is the McMartin preschool case coming to mind here? > > Funny how they never found any of the caves, tunnels or airplanes the kids were talking about. You know, the ones where they were taken and subjected to ritual sexual abuse. No it’s not funny. How did that even happen? Anyone knows that the police always look for evidence before even going down that kind of road. To hijack the minds of children and implant false memories seems like evil in the first degree. I can only hope that those kids are recovering from that terrifying experience of adults supplanting their innocence like that. One thing we do know, child abuse is a prevalent and persistent problem. A common factor among most published accounts of SRA are that those memories are ‘recovered’ through hypnosis (much like stories of alien abduction). The person I knew who claimed it did not have to have her memories recovered. Nor did she seem disingenuous. She never spoke of it, and only had done so when asked why she needed to be in the hospital. She never asked for anything. She merely wanted a room around around occult holidays because it helped her feel safe. We are experts in ferreting out BS in the mental health arena. The docs were overwhelmingly supportive of her and believed her. I pose this, can it be true that both realities exist? That there are real cases of this happening and also those that are utter falsity? Why does it have to be one or the other? All or nothing? Black and white? True, not true? Isn’t this type of thinking dangerous? As far as the women in the article. I’m waiting to see how this pans out. I’m not making any claims either way, no one could know that. We do know she murdered someone, and instead of defense, I think her claim to Satanic activity is most likely true - did she kill more? Who knows. It seems to me that the grandiosity in claiming Satanism would cohere well with lying in general. After all, he is the father of lies. Haha. (I’m playing a dangerous game here) We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/110 "2014-02-18T16:11:42Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > After all, he is the father of lies. Haha. (I’m playing a dangerous game here) We shall see. No, “he” is not the Father of Lies. The Satan-concept is humanity’s guiltsink. It’s what we use to shore up the delusion that evil isn’t something that anyone does deliberately. We like to imagine that we have to be LED to do evil by some outside force, which obviously isn’t true in the least. If we’ve been duped, tricked, tempted, led into doing evil, then the evil isn’t actually in US. We’re just the poor unfortunate victims of SATAN! Utter bullcrap. It’s the sign of a juvenile psychology. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/111 "2014-02-18T16:16:58Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > No it’s not funny. How did that even happen? Anyone knows that the police always look for evidence before even going down that kind of road. To hijack the minds of children and implant false memories seems like evil in the first degree. I can only hope that those kids are recovering from that terrifying experience of adults supplanting their innocence like that. > > One thing we do know, child abuse is a prevalent and persistent problem. A common factor among most published accounts of SRA are that those memories are ‘recovered’ through hypnosis (much like stories of alien abduction). The person I knew who claimed it did not have to have her memories recovered. Nor did she seem disingenuous. She never spoke of it, and only had done so when asked why she needed to be in the hospital. She never asked for anything. She merely wanted a room around around occult holidays because it helped her feel safe. We are experts in ferreting out BS in the mental health arena. The docs were overwhelmingly supportive of her and believed her. > > I pose this, can it be true that both realities exist? That there are real cases of this happening and also those that are utter falsity? Why does it have to be one or the other? All or nothing? Black and white? True, not true? Isn’t this type of thinking dangerous? > > As far as the women in the article. I’m waiting to see how this pans out. I’m not making any claims either way, no one could know that. We do know she murdered someone, and instead of defense, I think her claim to Satanic activity is most likely true - did she kill more? Who knows. It seems to me that the grandiosity in claiming Satanism would cohere well with lying in general. After all, he is the father of lies. Haha. (I’m playing a dangerous game here) We shall see. Still more reckless conjecture. Still more nervous laughter. Still no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/112 "2014-02-18T16:17:25Z")
Which is why if you find people who claim to follow Satan they’re always spotty-faced teenagers, or adult trolls. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/113 "2014-02-18T16:21:02Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Huh? 😕 Don’t you panic! By the light of the night It will all be all right I’ll get you a Satanic mechanic! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/114 "2014-02-18T16:23:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, “he” is not the Father of Lies. The Satan-concept is humanity’s guiltsink. It’s what we use to shore up the delusion that evil isn’t something that anyone does deliberately. We like to imagine that we have to be LED to do evil by some outside force, which obviously isn’t true in the least. If we’ve been duped, tricked, tempted, led into doing evil, then the evil isn’t actually in US. We’re just the poor unfortunate victims of SATAN! > > Utter bullcrap. It’s the sign of a juvenile psychology. Don’t judge **arielburns** too harshly. The Devil made him do it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/115 "2014-02-18T16:25:31Z")
All of Human Society is filled with ritual. Work, Government, Religion, daily life. Every time I drive cross-country, I do a ‘ritual’ of stocking certain items and performing certain actions. The act of preparing an aircraft for departure (pre-flight check) is a ritual. A Catholic Mass is a ritual. Hell, a recipe for chicken could be considered a ritual. So does that make the chicken satanic? An evil sacrifice to Satan done by preparing a dead chicken in a certain way and using (gasp!) _spices!_ and a knife? Or is it just food? Just more of the same pointless conjecture, **arielburns** , and assuming that something you are completely ignorant about must be evil. ---
**Author:** ![arielburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6de8d8/32.png) [@arielburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arielburns)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/116 "2014-02-18T16:26:12Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Can I ‘third’ this? > > Labeling a religion as ‘occult’ and therefore ‘scary’ is very limiting. The word ‘occult’ means ‘hidden’. This can mean that there are some aspects of the religion in question that are not openly promulgated among the uninitiated. The same can be said of Freemasonry and every single fraternity or sorority that I know of. > > Yes, there are Satanists. Some of them probably actually believe in Satan. I have never met one, yet, but doubtless they exist. There are also people who believe Star Trek was a documentary. These folks are usually refered to as delusional. I am lolling this so hard rite now. I dated a guy who, well, acted very strange (It’s impossible to even describe without sounding insane yourself) while watching Star Trek. The point is to never, ever put it past anyone to believe anything that serves a purpose for them. If ritual abuses occur, they are devices for people to transfer their inner desires of hatred, power and control into reality. Therein lies the evil within this sort of behavior. Occult means hidden. Yes, and quackery of the first degree. Just like Tom Cruise takes all graduating Scientologists out on a boat ride in the ocean when they are finally initiated. I’m glad you mentioned that. Here, we have secrets, and the secret is…(lies?) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/117 "2014-02-18T16:31:55Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I am lolling this so hard rite now. I dated a guy who, well, acted very strange (It’s impossible to even describe without sounding insane yourself) while watching Star Trek. > > The point is to never, ever put it past anyone to believe anything that serves a purpose for them. If ritual abuses occur, they are devices for people to transfer their inner desires of hatred, power and control into reality. Therein lies the evil within this sort of behavior. > > Occult means hidden. Yes, and quackery of the first degree. Just like Tom Cruise takes all graduating Scientologists out on a boat ride in the ocean when they are finally initiated. I’m glad you mentioned that. Here, we have secrets, and the secret is…(lies?) Could you please post something that _doesn’t_ confuse the issue more than you already have? We’ve heard your wild conjectures-it’s time to come forward with facts/evidence/links. edited to add: Just name one recognizable person that has a secondary Facebook page that is occultly/satanically oriented. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/118 "2014-02-18T16:33:18Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > No it’s not funny. How did that even happen? Anyone knows that the police always look for evidence before even going down that kind of road. No, they\* don’t.\* They certainly didn’t when it came to the Satanic Panic. > [@arielburns](#): > > A common factor among most published accounts of SRA are that those memories are ‘recovered’ through hypnosis (much like stories of alien abduction). No; false memories of "Satanic abuse"were apparently _manufactured_ with hypnosis in some cases, but none were “recovered”; there’s little evidence that repressed memories are anything but myth. And even if there _is_ such a thing as repressed memories, hypnosis is about the worst tool imaginable to recover them accurately. Hypnosis is good at making people believe fantasies, not uncovering truth. > [@arielburns](#): > > I pose this, can it be true that both realities exist? That there are real cases of this happening and also those that are utter falsity? Why does it have to be one or the other? Because claims of Satanic abuse always turn out to be false. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/119 "2014-02-18T16:38:16Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > Not all are in organized, some are actively practicing and some a mere enthusiasts. But I do know I’ve met that many people who have occultists beliefs. We have that stupid Eckanar here too, Llewellen worldwide book publishers. How do you define “occult” in a way that includes Llewellen’s books on performing flower magic, but excludes a Baptist praying for her son’s safety in Afghanistan? If you define “occult” as “secret,” then Llewellen is the opposite of occult: they’re doing their best to have a high public profile. But if you define “occult” as “belief in the supernatural or mystical,” then that Baptist performing theurgy (rituals designed to extract material results from gods) is also practicing occultism–and by that measure there are hundreds of millions of occultists in the United states. In either case occultism is absolutely nothing to be alarmed about. As for the crazy killer, I see a couple of possibilities: 1. She wants to confess to actual murders; or 2. She wants to confess to fake murders for some reason (a combination, perhaps, of teh crazy and teh drama). So look at how she confessed: to a reporter, with zero specifics. Does that sound remotely like what someone would do who was confessing to actual crimes? Not to me. It sounds like someone who’s got nothin’, but figures in for a penny, in for a pound, and is making up all sorts of stuff to make herself look like a supervillain instead of like a pathetic teenager with mental problems. And this is the general pattern. Cases of claimed Satanic murders and abuse almost\* never generate any forensic evidence whatsoever, which suggests one of three possibilities: 1. The people making the claims are delusional, or 2. The people committing the violence are, despite being mentally disturbed, supervillain geniuses far smarter than other criminals, totally capable of committing The Perfect Crime; or 3. Satan, Father of Lies, is real, and is better at covering up crimes than God, Father of Goodness, is at helping people uncover them. I know which of those three possibilities seems likeliest to me. - “almost” might be unnecessary, but I do love my weasel words. Sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/120 "2014-02-18T16:41:00Z")
Psychopathology and ritual go hand-in-glove. One need only look at any classic case of pure Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder to see an excellent illustration of this. Psychopathology and externalization also go together, and schizophrenia is another good example. Because someone ritualized their aberrant behaviors, and associates them with some Other (perhaps some internalized belief in magic forces, Evil, or yes, Satan) does not mean that person has any connection whatsoever to other people, groups, or organizations. Or, indeed, reality. **arielburns** , you are absolutely correct when you say that > [@](#): > > [if] ritual abuses occur, they are devices for people to transfer their inner desires of hatred, power and control into reality. But your flaw is assuming that those ritualized abuses are tied to anything outside that individual. I’m not sure I’m making sense. Do you get what I’m saying? It’s not the “occult” or even “Satanism,” it’s individual pathology at work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=7)