# Does her claim of Satanic influence make her less credible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549 "2014-02-17T17:41:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/161 "2014-02-19T03:15:26Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Sure, but his personal psychosis was not associated with Satanism or a cult. And… Miranda Barbour’s has been so associated? I’m sorry, but I don’t get your point. I’m looking at documented cases where, indeed, young people kill many with accompanying rituals and claim Satanic motivation. You don’t think that’s related? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/162 "2014-02-19T03:24:42Z")
:shrug: Ok. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/163 "2014-02-19T03:26:29Z")
Do you remember back to the OP? I think my latest posts have been just about the most relevant thing to it. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/164 "2014-02-19T03:45:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Have there been **any** actual documented cases of “ritual abuse,” ever? Serious question. (Of course I mean in modern times, don’t bring up the Aztecs.) I read [this](http://www.amazon.com/Speak-Devil-Satanic-Contemporary-England/dp/0521629349/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1392780636) a few years ago about the satanic abuse craze\* that went through the UK after the USA was done with it. > [@](#): > > Professor La Fontaine, an anthropologist, has studied the literature on satanic abuse in England and conducted a detailed analysis of a number of actual cases. She found no evidence of devil worship. She concludes that behind the hysteria is a social movement, comparable to classic instances of witchcraft accusations and the witch hunts in sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Europe. IIRC there were plenty of signs of abuse in some cases - either mental, pyhsical or sexual but no evidence to indicate any kind of connection to satanism. - if we were discussing UFO’s it would be a ‘Flap’ > [@simster](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Hey - They’re not ALL “historical documents.” Surely, you don’t think Gilligan’s Island is a… Oh, those poor people… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/165 "2014-02-19T04:23:10Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Do you remember back to the OP? I think my latest posts have been just about the most relevant thing to it. Well, that was kinda my point. I don’t see how the Night Stalker is all that relevant to the OP not because I disagree with you but because I’m still not seeing that _anything_ is relevant to the OP. But if we’re picking nits, Ramirez was a crazy person claiming to be personally influenced by Satan. The gal mentioned in the OP is a crazy person claiming to have run some sort of organized satanic cult, which then becomes the grist for the rest of the OP. But then, I am a DAFT ONE, after all. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/166 "2014-02-19T04:29:22Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > And… Miranda Barbour’s has been so associated? I’m sorry, but I don’t get your point. I’m looking at documented cases where, indeed, young people kill many with accompanying rituals and claim Satanic motivation. > > You don’t think that’s related? The point is that even omitting all the obvious cases where accusations of Satanism were false, (McMartin’s, etc.), what we find among the rest are people with psychoses who blame their actions on Satanism when there is no evidence that they were actually motivated by a genuine belief in Satan (or a genuine coven or whatever). In other words, Satanism is nothing more than a prop for some other fantasy in their head and not the inspiration for their behavior. With that track record, there is no particular reason to believe that anyone has ever been motivated by an actual belief in Satan, regardless how many people actually engage in occult practices or beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/167 "2014-02-19T05:10:52Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Nor does anyone doubt that Anton LaVey exists… I do. I will go so far as to say that he has not existed since October 29, 1997. Death flips the switch from “exists” to “doesn’t exist.” > [@arielburns](#): > > crap, two there, their, they’re mistakes in one message. > > I’m done. :smack: You recognized your sin, so you are already fitting in here, my child, and you performed your penance with the :smack:. Go and sin no more. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/168 "2014-02-19T13:32:06Z")
Well let’s think about it. If you’re facing harsh punishment for serious crimes, how do you best attempt to mitigate your punishment and get the court to go easy on you? You blame others. You claim to be a part of a group. You ‘cut a deal’ to provide information so that they can prosecute others. And on the other hand, in the very Christian USA, full of ignorant bumpkins who still believe the Sun revolves around the Earth\*, how do you reach out from your jail cell and frighten the hell out of people, thus still having some fun? You claim it involves Satan or demonic possession, or Cults. Or all three. - 1 in 4, according to a recent survey. :smack: I should add that such a thing could also be a play for power in the jail. She’s nothing, really. But if some of her guards are afraid of her because of it, if some of the other prisoners are afraid of it because of her, then she has power where she otherwise would be powerless. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/169 "2014-02-19T16:53:06Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Well, that was kinda my point. I don’t see how the Night Stalker is all that relevant to the OP not because I disagree with you but because I’m still not seeing that _anything_ is relevant to the OP. But if we’re picking nits, Ramirez was a crazy person claiming to be personally influenced by Satan. The gal mentioned in the OP is a crazy person claiming to have run some sort of organized satanic cult, which then becomes the grist for the rest of the OP. > > But then, I am a DAFT ONE, after all. > [@tomndebb](#): > > The point is that even omitting all the obvious cases where accusations of Satanism were false, (McMartin’s, etc.), what we find among the rest are people with psychoses who blame their actions on Satanism when there is no evidence that they were actually motivated by a genuine belief in Satan (or a genuine coven or whatever). In other words, Satanism is nothing more than a prop for some other fantasy in their head and not the inspiration for their behavior. > > With that track record, there is no particular reason to believe that anyone has ever been motivated by an actual belief in Satan, regardless how many people actually engage in occult practices or beliefs. You’ve stopped just short of the point: Ramirez HAD killed all those people. His case equals hers, and then they found the bodies. Also, I’m not sure you can divine whether someone was motivated by a genuine belief in Satan. What makes you sure that Ramirez was no Satanist? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/170 "2014-02-19T17:19:04Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Also, I’m not sure you can divine whether someone was motivated by a genuine belief in Satan. Throw holy water on him, see if he ignites. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/171 "2014-02-19T17:40:05Z")
> [@tapu](#): > > Also, I’m not sure you can divine whether someone was motivated by a genuine belief in Satan. What makes you sure that Ramirez was no Satanist? He was, in his own mind. But not in the organized, cultish way the OP seems to be discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/172 "2014-02-19T17:58:18Z")
> [@andros](#): > > He was, in his own mind. But not in the organized, cultish way the OP seems to be discussing. I think this is important. After Reagan got shot, we didn’t worry about the national threat of people attracted to Jodi Foster. After the Son of Sam was caught, we didn’t freak out about people who thought dogs could talk. And Ramirez shouldn’t make us worry about the threat of murderous Satanists. Crazy murderers are crazy. They have all sorts of idiosyncratic nutjob explanations for why they murder. That doesn’t mean much, except maybe we need to do a better job identifying and treating mental illness. If it turns out that there are organized people who, under their religious bailiwick, are committing and covering up heinous child abuse, then sure, we need to sue the Catholic church for all its worth. But there’s no evidence whatsoever that something similar is going on with any group of Satanists. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/173 "2014-02-19T18:42:11Z")
True enough. We didn’t have a national scare over the idea of God telling women to kill their kids a year or three back. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/174 "2014-02-19T19:12:20Z")
Yes, aboves, I see your points and the distinction you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/175 "2014-02-20T01:18:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > True enough. We didn’t have a national scare over the idea of God telling women to kill their kids a year or three back. “Next on CNN: Is God telling women to murder their children? Experts weigh in, and tell us how you can protect your own children from a bloodthirsty God” “Well Wolf, the Christian Bible does tell us that God told Abraham to kill his own son, so clearly, this sort of thing has been known to happen.” “Next on Fox: President Obama’s continuing assault on Religious Liberty. Women being sent to prison for obeying the Word of God!” ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/176 "2014-02-20T08:33:11Z")
> [@arielburns](#): > > I personally have met hundreds and hundreds of occult practitioners and have been to hosted parties in art warehouses, cage dancers and snakes and rituals being performed. I have never seen anything devious, but I’ve heard of sexual rituals and blood rituals etc. These are well educated people. High society. It’s disturbing because most have alternate facebook profiles with their occult names and they don’t have pictures of themselves, but many pics are now showing up with blood dribbling down the lips (uses of sexual imagery and blood) – so call me a liar. Let’s compare experiences. I know a few members of the Neo-Luciferian Church. The Church has its own Facebook profile, just like many clubs, organizations, etc. But the members themselves do _not_ seem to have “alternate facebook profiles,” and certainly not of the extravagant kind you mention, with “blood dribbling down the lips” and whatnot. So, the fellas you mention. If you can’t link to these mysterious “alternate facebook profiles,” could you at least tell us which magical orders / secret societies / whatever they belong to? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve read that he described his Satanism as “Objectivism with mysticism added.” Almost right. His exact words were “Ayn Rand with trappings.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/177 "2014-02-20T15:21:56Z")
Right. There is a worldwide network of satantic cults commiting horrific acts and the FBI investigation could not find one piece of evidence. Is the FBI in on it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/178 "2014-02-20T15:56:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Right. There is a worldwide network of satantic cults commiting horrific acts and the FBI investigation could not find one piece of evidence. Is the FBI in on it? Well, of course. It’s a federal agency, isn’t it? Just look at the Great Seal. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/179 "2014-02-20T16:01:05Z")
Oh god, it’s right on our monnnnnnnnnneeeeeeey! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549/180 "2014-02-20T16:30:47Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Right. There is a worldwide network of satantic cults commiting horrific acts and the FBI investigation could not find one piece of evidence. Is the FBI in on it? Sure. “FBI” actually stands for Fiendish Bureau of the Inferno. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-her-claim-of-satanic-influence-make-her-less-credible/681549.md?page=10)