# Does human life have inherent value? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657 "2006-06-06T18:51:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/41 "2006-06-07T20:37:18Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] The evidence you offer–two links without drawing out specific claims–does little to convince me. May I offer up Canada as a counter-example, a society with a tremendous social safety net and a crime rate much lower than the US’s? That seems at least as valid as your Japan cite. [/QUOTE] Which segment of society is causing Canadian crime though? The homeless, or those on welfare? Per your argument, most Canadian crime should be being commited by the homeless, and for that reason that we would need to keep people from getting to that state. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/42 "2006-06-07T22:21:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] As a counter cite, Japan has essentially no welfare. [/QUOTE] IIRC they have a form of unofficial welfare in the form of useless, makework jobs, like elevator operators; unneeded, but it serves as welfare while allowing them to pretend it doesn’t exist. [QUOTE=Sage Rat] Doesn’t seem very logically sound. I haven’t read the book it comes from, but looking at the real world having a safety net seems to have more to do with creating crime than preventing it. No country I can think of proves your assertion, and every one that I do know goes in the face of it if it goes in any way. [/QUOTE] How about all the nations that suffer from uprisings or outright revolutions from the desperate and impovershed with nothing to lose ? Letting millions of people suffer without a safety net makes them work harder, all right; it makes them work to build an army and come and kill you. It’s perfectly fair; if you feel no compassion towards them, why should they feel any towards you ? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/43 "2006-06-08T06:25:00Z")
Well, I believe all life has inherent value, including the life of a (shudder) heartworm. By the same token, I think a flame has value, & beauty has value. But all these things have costs, as well, & must be balanced against each other. (This does not mean that I try to calculate every cost constantly, just that I try to respect that the values are there in an absolute sense.) I don’t believe that an individual human life has absolute, infinite, sacrosanct value, it’s just another part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/44 "2006-06-08T07:18:18Z")
Well, basically, I think that my particular human life has value. You want me to be part of your society, you are going to have to at least theoretically agree with my assesment on that. If you don’t, I figure you are in this for what you get out of it, and I should approach it from the same point of view. If I think I can take what you have, if I want it, and think I can get away with it, then according to the zero tolerance model of human value, I should just take it, and kill you if necessary. I think we could do better. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/45 "2006-06-08T07:20:34Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] How about all the nations that suffer from uprisings or outright revolutions from the desperate and impovershed with nothing to lose ? Letting millions of people suffer without a safety net makes them work harder, all right; it makes them work to build an army and come and kill you. It’s perfectly fair; if you feel no compassion towards them, why should they feel any towards you ? [/QUOTE] You’re talking about countries in which have no method for supporting yourself period, not one without a safety net. If I decree that 90% of the population can’t, say, farm their land because I (the dictator) want to use all that space for my personal amusement park–well the people have no choice but to fight or die. But that’s an entirely different case from people in modern nations where “if you’ve got the time and a way, we want you to make money for us” and the issue isn’t that the person is forbidden from supporting himself, but rather just that he got unlucky for a bit/messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/46 "2006-06-08T07:22:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] IIRC they have a form of unofficial welfare in the form of useless, makework jobs, like elevator operators; unneeded, but it serves as welfare while allowing them to pretend it doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE] I’d be fine with introducing mandatory labor as an alternative to welfare. I doubt you would get very far with such a proposal though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/47 "2006-06-08T08:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] But that’s an entirely different case from people in modern nations where “if you’ve got the time and a way, we want you to make money for us” and the issue isn’t that the person is forbidden from supporting himself, but rather just that he got unlucky for a bit/messed up. [/QUOTE] Starved to death is starved to death; I doubt anyone in such a position will care if it’s a dictatorship or a corporation responsible. Nor are there infinite jobs available; sometimes people simply can’t get a job. Not to mention, being forced economically into a degrading or dangerous job can create just as much rage. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/48 "2006-06-08T08:12:41Z")
[QUOTE=Sage Rat] I’d be fine with introducing mandatory labor as an alternative to welfare. I doubt you would get very far with such a proposal though. [/QUOTE] Oh, and the other name for “mandatory labor” is slavery; that’s a proposal I’d be willing to have another Civil War to stop. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/49 "2006-06-08T15:07:40Z")
Well, if **Der Trihs’** argument doesn’t convince **Weirddave** , nothing will. I mean, I read into it that welfare helps prevent communist revolutions. Which might just be true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/50 "2006-06-08T17:47:26Z")
[QUOTE=bup] Well, if **Der Trihs’** argument doesn’t convince **Weirddave** , nothing will. I mean, I read into it that welfare helps prevent communist revolutions. Which might just be true. [/QUOTE] That is _exactly_ what I’m saying. That was an arguement used after WW 2 to justify helping the Germans IIRC; something like “If it’s a choice between being capitalist on 1000 calories a day, or a Communist on 1500, most people will become Communists”. Quoted from memory; I’m sure I butchered it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/51 "2006-06-08T19:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] You want me to be part of your society, you are going to have to at least theoretically agree with my assesment on that. If you don’t, I figure you are in this for what you get out of it, and I should approach it from the same point of view. If I think I can take what you have, if I want it, and think I can get away with it, then according to the zero tolerance model of human value, I should just take it, and kill you if necessary. [/QUOTE] Or, more pithily: If you are free to assert that my life has value, then I am free to assert the same about you, and behave accordingly. Result: anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/52 "2006-06-08T19:40:10Z")
Crap: _If you are free to assert that my life has **no** value, then I am free to assert the same about you, and behave accordingly._ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/53 "2006-06-09T06:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Crap: _If you are free to assert that my life has **no** value, then I am free to assert the same about you, and behave accordingly._ [/QUOTE] My favorite version of that : “The problem with a dog-eat-dog society is sooner or later everybody gets eaten” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2006, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657/54 "2006-06-09T06:51:52Z")
I always thought the value was around $1.99/lb unless there is a sale going on at the meat counter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-human-life-have-inherent-value/359657.md?page=2)