# Does humanity have too much STEM education or too little **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576 "2010-01-11T23:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/61 "2010-01-16T20:25:25Z")
Absolutely. Critical thinkers rock too many boats. They make both their superiors and their peers uncomfortable. They put lasting benefits and long-run strategies ahead of next quarter’s numbers and pleasing the front office. Like the heart, the organization wants what it wants. It pays lip service to out-of-the-box thinking, but does not encourage or develop it as such. At best, we let it have some freedom among senior people who have proved that they can play the game. We make it a privilege earned by many years of not exercising it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/62 "2010-01-16T21:00:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but that doesn’t really address the cause, that’s more addressing the underlying symptom that causes the symptom. Why was there an anti-science backlash? Why did we stop loving our engineers and start loving pop-stars instead? Why did we choose to send our best and brightest into banking instead of engineering? Because bankers make a shitload more money than engineers. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/63 "2010-01-16T21:05:12Z")
And, of course, the market is always right. Especially now that the best and brightest are compelled to think and act as though it is. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/64 "2010-01-16T22:06:50Z")
The problem, I suspect, is that science and engineering types have lower _social_ status than their pocketbooks suggest. Nobody wants to be a nerd, and the undue respect we give even mediocre artists and “intellectuals” is the scientist’s loss. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/65 "2010-01-16T23:13:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because bankers make a shitload more money than engineers. Yes, obviously that’s true. But isn’t upward mobility more likely amongst engineers than Bankers? The upper echelons of banking make more money, but there are fewer positions? [QUOTE=athelas] The problem, I suspect, is that science and engineering types have lower social status than their pocketbooks suggest. Nobody wants to be a nerd, and the undue respect we give even mediocre artists and “intellectuals” is the scientist’s loss. [/QUOTE] Don’t buy it. Scientists and Engineers are looked at very highly in our culture. One doesn’t need to be incapable socially in order to be a Scientist. No Scientist who has good social skills will be looked down upon. If people can’t outgrow their fear of being nerds in HS then they are probably not cut out to be a scientist. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/66 "2010-01-17T00:02:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because bankers make a shitload more money than engineers. You sure? See, it depends what you define as a “banker.” I’m guessing that by “banker” you’re only including the upper echelons of investment banking professionals (with an emphasis on those who work in Manhattan, where you live) and by “engineers” you mean “everyone who is employed in an engineering capacity.” If you use the same definition for both - thereby incorporating everyone who works in banking, which would include front line mortgage sales, tellers, and the like, working in places like Altoona and Fort Wayne - I’ll bet the numbers are about the same. Most bankers aren’t rich, which of course is true of most professions. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/67 "2010-01-17T00:20:24Z")
I don’t think **m** ’s counting the kind of bankers with tan suits and Buick SUVs. He’s concerned with the Masters of the Universe, and probably doesn’t see anyone close to their earning power or influence with the title “engineer.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/68 "2010-01-17T01:17:59Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I don’t think **m** ’s counting the kind of bankers with tan suits and Buick SUVs. He’s concerned with the Masters of the Universe, and probably doesn’t see anyone close to their earning power or influence with the title “engineer.” I don’t know, the heads of Google could fairly be thought of as engineers. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/69 "2010-01-17T10:41:02Z")
The anti-vaccination thing alluded to earlier is one indication that science and critical thinking education is failing in much of the western world. (This has nothing to do with STEM employment of course.) Many people think of scientists as people who sit around patting each other on the back about how clever they all are. And that “experiments” are just some demo intended to support someone’s opinion i.e. scientists do not try to falsify their own ideas. Of course I’m not implying that science is 100% squeeky-clean, just that public health could be served by people understanding the methodologies better. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/70 "2010-01-17T14:51:12Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The anti-vaccination thing alluded to earlier is one indication that science and critical thinking education is failing in much of the western world. > (This has nothing to do with STEM employment of course.) Falling implies that it was higher in the past. That is doubtful. There has always been plenty of superstition to go around. Looking at new superstitions that crop up as evidence that its falling isn’t very critical itself. Lets think about it critically. If people previously had science and math education, why would they lose it? Why wouldn’t they teach it to their children? > [@](#): > > Many people think of scientists as people who sit around patting each other on the back about how clever they all are. And that “experiments” are just some demo intended to support someone’s opinion i.e. scientists do not try to falsify their own ideas. Heh, are you projecting what you think other people think here? > [@](#): > > Of course I’m not implying that science is 100% squeeky-clean, just that public health could be served by people understanding the methodologies better. Yes, of course. But it’s not evidence of a fall in scientific standards. It’s simply evidence that scientific standards haven’t penetrated more fully. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/71 "2010-01-17T15:56:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right, the person prepared with critical thinking skills but is light on facts can learn the facts very quickly as opposed to the person who is heavy on facts but light on critical thinking. There is an old insult: “He is a bookcase, not a scholar” that describes the latter quite well. I’ve known many bookcases and a handful of scholars. Certainly we need to teach STEM better. We need to teach the habits of mind. When a large segment of the American population believes creationism over evolution you know we are doing something wrong. As a population we are not very scientifically literate and as a consequence our citizens make some pretty dumb ass choices from public policy to being vaccine refusers. That education is a before college bit and in the real world you learn critical thinking by applying it to the acquisition of real facts of importance. You learn both at the same time as you determine which facts and tools you might need to answer the question and gather them by research and experimentation. Often of course schools try to teach the facts and the critical thinking as separate items and that never works. Do we need more college level math majors and engineers and chemists? I’d argue more for liberal arts with occasional minors in those subjects. We need critical thinking and creativity. Narrow education doesn’t make for that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/72 "2010-01-17T15:58:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There is an old insult: “He is a bookcase, not a scholar” that describes the latter quite well. I’ve known many bookcases and a handful of scholars. > > Certainly we need to teach STEM better. We need to teach the habits of mind. > > When a large segment of the American population believes creationism over evolution you know we are doing something wrong. As a population we are not very scientifically literate and as a consequence our citizens make some pretty dumb ass choices from public policy to being vaccine refusers. That education is a before college bit and in the real world you learn critical thinking by applying it to the acquisition of real facts of importance. You learn both at the same time as you determine which facts and tools you might need to answer the question and gather them by research and experimentation. Often of course schools try to teach the facts and the critical thinking as separate items and that never works. > > Do we need more college level math majors and engineers and chemists? I’d argue more for liberal arts with occasional minors in those subjects. We need critical thinking and creativity. Narrow education doesn’t make for that. A student should already know Algebra, Trigonometry, Chemistry, Biology and Physics before entering college. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/73 "2010-01-17T16:49:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Do we need more college level math majors and engineers and chemists? I’d argue more for liberal arts with occasional minors in those subjects. We need critical thinking and creativity. Narrow education doesn’t make for that. We need people who know how to approach problems and solve them. We don’t need more “intellectuals” arguing philosophical bullshit about subjects they don’t really understand. You are greatly mistaken if you don’t think engineers think critically and creatively or that an engineering major is a “narrow discipline”. I have an engineering degree but I also studied electives in english, history, economics, psychology, political science, and the arts. The electives help to provide a well-rounded education, however it is my background in engineering and business and understanding how things actually work that allows me to contribute to society. The liberal arts stuff just helps to provide context. > [@RickJay](#): > > Originally Posted by msmith537 > Because bankers make a shitload more money than engineers. > > You sure? > > See, it depends what you define as a “banker.” I’m guessing that by “banker” you’re only including the upper echelons of investment banking professionals (with an emphasis on those who work in Manhattan, where you live) and by “engineers” you mean “everyone who is employed in an engineering capacity.” It doesn’t matter if that is factually true (which it probably isn’t). The perception is based on public stories of bankers making six figure bonuses while engineers get laid off as their companies outsource or go out of business. So if you are one of the best and brightest students from one of the top schools, you go to where you think the money is. When I graduated college in the mid-90s, a significant number of people in my engineering program did not go into engineering. Engineering jobs were though to come by and they didn’t pay all that well. So they used their quantitative skills to go work for tech or consulting firms like Accenture (then Andersen Consulting) or investment banks or they went to law or business school. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/74 "2010-01-17T16:52:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We need people who know how to approach problems and solve them. We don’t need more “intellectuals” arguing philosophical bullshit about subjects they don’t really understand. “Intellectuals”, arguing philosophical bullshit is itself more evidence of a need for better education in critical thinking and formal logic. > [@](#): > > You are greatly mistaken if you don’t think engineers think critically and creatively or that an engineering major is a “narrow discipline”. I have an engineering degree but I also studied electives in english, history, economics, psychology, political science, and the arts. The electives help to provide a well-rounded education, however it is my background in engineering and business and understanding how things actually work that allows me to contribute to society. The liberal arts stuff just helps to provide context. Helps you to communicate with other people also. The other bits would be useless if you couldn’t use grammar properly. Or rather you couldn’t be an effective part of a team. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if that is factually true (which it probably isn’t). The perception is based on public stories of bankers making six figure bonuses while engineers get laid off as their companies outsource or go out of business. So if you are one of the best and brightest students from one of the top schools, you go to where you think the money is. Yeah, but how many bankers are getting bonuses like that? Bankers are being laid off too. So it’s as much about what we choose to hype as it is about the actual reality. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/75 "2010-01-17T18:42:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Falling implies that it was higher in the past. That is doubtful. There has always been plenty of superstition to go around. Looking at new superstitions that crop up as evidence that its falling isn’t very critical itself. Lets think about it critically. If people previously had science and math education, why would they lose it? Why wouldn’t they teach it to their children? Yep but you’ve actually mis-read my post. I didn’t say FALLing I said FAILing. No implication of it being better in the past. > [@](#): > > Heh, are you projecting what you think other people think here? Well, extrapolating, but basically yes. No-one has said those exact words to me; I’m reading between the lines. > [@](#): > > Yes, of course. But it’s not evidence of a fall in scientific standards. It’s simply evidence that scientific standards haven’t penetrated more fully. Again, FAIL not FALL. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/76 "2010-01-17T19:43:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We need people who know how to approach problems and solve them. We don’t need more “intellectuals” arguing philosophical bullshit about subjects they don’t really understand. > > You are greatly mistaken if you don’t think engineers think critically and creatively or that an engineering major is a “narrow discipline”. I have an engineering degree but I also studied electives in english, history, economics, psychology, political science, and the arts. The electives help to provide a well-rounded education, however it is my background in engineering and business and understanding how things actually work that allows me to contribute to society. The liberal arts stuff just helps to provide context. _Just_ provides context? Yes, your contribution to society uses your maths and engineering training. But as pointed out your ability to place it in context, and your ability to communicate ideas to others depended on those well rounded electives. Interesting enough is [this fact](http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/317/5834/17) (behind firewall) > [@](#): > > Here’s a look at colleges and universities of similar cost and selectivity, from a study begun at HHMI. For the decade 1986 through 1995, baccalaureate-only colleges were compared with research universities by measuring bachelor’s degrees awarded in the previous decade with the number of Ph.D.'s produced later. Four of the top five institutions in proportional rank were liberal arts colleges. The top two, Reed and Swarthmore, nearly doubled the productivity of Harvard and Yale. Even the absolute numbers contain some surprises: Carleton graduates over this period earned more Ph.D.'s in chemistry than did those of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or Princeton. Oddly enough, more liberal arts may equal more highest level STEM. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/77 "2010-01-17T22:52:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Don’t buy it. Scientists and Engineers are looked at very highly in our culture. One doesn’t need to be incapable socially in order to be a Scientist. No Scientist who has good social skills will be looked down upon. If people can’t outgrow their fear of being nerds in HS then they are probably not cut out to be a scientist. Yes, in the vague speeches of politicians and doomsday preachers. But who gets more dates? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/78 "2010-01-17T23:17:26Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That’s part of the equation. But you can have all the information in the world at your fingertips and still be an idiot. This brings up the image of Jenny McCarthy who proudly proclaimed that she graduated from the university of google as a defense against accusations of… well, that she has no clue what she’s talking about in regards to anti-vax BS. People aren’t that good at evaluating the quality of sources, how to seperate the good from the bad, and what conclusions to draw from that information. Increasingly we will have any information available to us at any time - but how many people can use it well? I just said they had facts, not that they had a clue. And teaching a person to do a Google search involves a lot more than typing words into a text box or showing what “AND” means. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/79 "2010-01-17T23:29:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes. That is true, but your demographic is skewed. Math and Science skills need more emphasis, no doubt about it, but the East Asian cultures that are pumping out Engineers these days tend to over-emphasize them. But I think we are in agreement that if primary education did better with Math and Science education, then it would be better for the populace as a whole. It would make us more competitive for the jobs you are talking about, and it would also give the general populace a better educational baseline with which to support those technical jobs. Being Jewish, and thus in another over-represented minority in this, I understand. We need a combination of both better education and better social rewards for this kind of thing. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say we shouldn’t produce texts that distill the information for the students. I said we shouldn’t produce TEXTBOOKS. There is plenty of public information available on the internet to teach anatomy for instance. All without resorting to scientific journals. Teaching anatomy is one of those places where wikipedia is the right tool for the job. Understanding the range of motion for the [Flexor Carpi Ulnaris](http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/images/forearm.gif) does not require an expensive textbook. > > It’s not the distilled information I object to. It is the limited textual format required by paper size and page counts that limits how much information can go into the book, and the sheer weight of the books, that I have a problem with. Simply put expecting a 13 year old to carry around 30 lbs of books on their back is kind of unfair, and at this point we have the technology where they shouldn’t have to. If McGraw-Hill wanted to publish their information in a web format and license the product to schools, that would be fine. No more fines for writing in the margins. Every student could have a notepad account where they can scrawl all over the website if they like. It would be considerably cheaper, as you could charge less expensive licenses for the accounts, and provide paired down laptops that have security software so that students cannot browse beyond sanctioned materials on that laptop. I agree that the heavy delivery format is awful - we’ll get better son with technology. But a good textbook provides the framework for linking facts together, which is far more important than memorization - though you still need a good set of facts to link. The text my wife worked on was bad because there was only room for facts. When my daughter was a senior, she was in AP History. While her grades were fine, she didn’t really get it. Remembering that when I was in high school we all learned plenty from reading Morrison and Commager to pass the AP History test, leaving class time for interesting discussions, we went to the bookstore and got a good non-textbook on American History. This gave the background, not just the facts, and she got a 5 on the test. Today understanding the connections between things is even more important, because you can get the facts about something specific from the Web very quickly. But the bite size chunks of information you find on-line are not good in linking things together. The understanding of the big picture, and the ability to convey it, takes a lot of skill. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/80 "2010-01-17T23:42:49Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Absolutely. Critical thinkers rock too many boats. They make both their superiors and their peers uncomfortable. They put lasting benefits and long-run strategies ahead of next quarter’s numbers and pleasing the front office. > > Like the heart, the organization wants what it wants. It pays lip service to out-of-the-box thinking, but does not encourage or develop it as such. > > At best, we let it have some freedom among senior people who have proved that they can play the game. We make it a privilege earned by many years of not exercising it. I’m curious - have you ever worked for a large organization? I’ll note that Kernighan and Richie invented UNIX while working for the largest corporation in the world. They weren’t senior people at the time - just smart ones. And I personally had a whole bunch of freedom right out of grad school when I started working for Western Electric - more than I had as a manager, because of less baggage. A small number of people in both the humanities and engineering can do innovative work. People who can’t, and who do the day to day work to make things run smoothly, shouldn’t be sneered at the way you’re doing. Though engineers seem to get more money than the low level editor at a publishing house. Science and engineering education treat the innovators, the entrepreneurs, as heroes, just as humanities education does. Do you think Silicon Valley happened because all engineers just looked at numbers? Our dreams are riskier than yours, and more likely to get slapped in the face by reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576.md?page=5)