# Does humanity have too much STEM education or too little **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576 "2010-01-11T23:40:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/81 "2010-01-17T23:53:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yep but you’ve actually mis-read my post. > > I didn’t say FALLing I said FAILing. > > No implication of it being better in the past. Right, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/82 "2010-01-18T00:08:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Being Jewish, and thus in another over-represented minority in this, I understand. We need a combination of both better education and better social rewards for this kind of thing. Yes, but education creates social rewards. It’s easier to take a job below your capability than one above it. And also a more educated populace would naturally be more inclined to engage in the kinds of projects that would require a more educated population. Also, I think it should be coupled with basic skills. It’s ridiculous that not pretty much everyone knows how to do basic plumbing and electrical. > [@](#): > > I agree that the heavy delivery format is awful - we’ll get better son with technology. But a good textbook provides the framework for linking facts together, which is far more important than memorization - though you still need a good set of facts to link. The text my wife worked on was bad because there was only room for facts. When my daughter was a senior, she was in AP History. While her grades were fine, she didn’t really get it. Remembering that when I was in high school we all learned plenty from reading Morrison and Commager to pass the AP History test, leaving class time for interesting discussions, we went to the bookstore and got a good non-textbook on American History. This gave the background, not just the facts, and she got a 5 on the test. I think it’s time to replace textbooks with a tablet PC. > [@](#): > > Today understanding the connections between things is even more important, because you can get the facts about something specific from the Web very quickly. But the bite size chunks of information you find on-line are not good in linking things together. The understanding of the big picture, and the ability to convey it, takes a lot of skill. Sure but a textbook could consist of an interactive model of the anatomy, rather than static pictures. Toggle-able muscles. You can remove and replace Flexor Carpi Ulnaris like it was a lego. How long do you think it would take to remember what Flexor Carpi Ulnaris was if they went through that several times? It could display the ranges of motion, and use color coded information to tell you when you have hyperextended it. Kids could learn their muscles really well, very quickly. It would still be rote, but because of the practical kinetic aspect that allows one to show animations that feature the particular muscle we’re working on, it will input the information much more deeply, much more quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/83 "2010-01-18T01:39:00Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The anti-vaccination thing alluded to earlier is one indication that science and critical thinking education is failing in much of the western world. > (This has nothing to do with STEM employment of course.) > > Many people think of scientists as people who sit around patting each other on the back about how clever they all are. And that “experiments” are just some demo intended to support someone’s opinion i.e. scientists do not try to falsify their own ideas. > > Of course I’m not implying that science is 100% squeeky-clean, just that public health could be served by people understanding the methodologies better. I think as a society we are very deficient in critical thinking (I, like everyone else, could use some improvement). However I don’t think training in STEM fields will help with that. A better outlet would be more training in critical thinking, rhetoric, debate, interpersonal communication, emotional intelligence, etc. Daniel Dennett said he wants to teach kids the history, pros and cons of every religion. He said he gets opposition from this, probably because doing so would open kids minds to contradictory or troubling information they had never been exposed to at home or in their religious services which might make them question those beliefs. I would be fully in favor of that. But my point is that if we want a society full of critical thinkers we’d probably be better off focusing more on liberal arts education than STEM educations. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/84 "2010-01-18T02:55:04Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I don’t think **m** ’s counting the kind of bankers with tan suits and Buick SUVs. He’s concerned with the Masters of the Universe, and probably doesn’t see anyone close to their earning power or influence with the title “engineer.” A lot of CEOs and other senior executives start off as engineers or technical people in companies. One of the benefits of a technical education is that it actually allows you to CREATE something, instead of just “think critically” about stuff. It’s the difference between being able to write music versus just critiquing it. > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Absolutely. Critical thinkers rock too many boats. They make both their superiors and their peers uncomfortable. They put lasting benefits and long-run strategies ahead of next quarter’s numbers and pleasing the front office. > > Like the heart, the organization wants what it wants. It pays lip service to out-of-the-box thinking, but does not encourage or develop it as such. > > At best, we let it have some freedom among senior people who have proved that they can play the game. We make it a privilege earned by many years of not exercising it. Maybe in your job. By definition, I am required to come up with “out-of-the-box” thinking in my job. But I am also supposed to be able to quantitively justify those suggestions with facts and analysis. Not just pontificate on why I think it might be a great idea. Yes, to a certain extent you need to shut up and play the game in every company. There is a time for coming up with new and better ways to do things and there is a time to just shut the fuck up and do what you are told because the rules are in place for a reason, even if you don’t understand them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/85 "2010-01-18T03:12:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, but education creates social rewards. It’s easier to take a job below your capability than one above it. And also a more educated populace would naturally be more inclined to engage in the kinds of projects that would require a more educated population. Also, I think it should be coupled with basic skills. It’s ridiculous that not pretty much everyone knows how to do basic plumbing and electrical. In the long run you are right, but a lot of kids don’t think in the long run. Plus, a lot of kids see goofing off and practicing their basketball or skateboarding as cool now, and cool in the future if they get to be like a hero in the NBA. Studying is not cool now, and offers a future as a nerd. I agree about the basic skills, though there are some people I wouldn’t trust anywhere near a sink. A bit more kudos for self reliance would be good. When I read the Times I often read about how quite well educated people practically brag about not being able to balance a checkbook. If society, instead of thinking “how cute” thought “how stupid” perhaps they’d get with it. > [@](#): > > I think it’s time to replace textbooks with a tablet PC. You can get a netbook for the price of three textbooks these days. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/86 "2010-01-18T17:35:29Z")
I feel I should note that the pro liberal arts folks seem to be arguing based on what they “feel” the ideal breakdown of society should be. However as a management consultant (with a degree in engineering and an MBA), I prefer to make my decision based on data. And from the data I have observed (salary, hiring, etc), there continues to be a steady to high demand for STEM educated people. And I still can’t figure out why you liberal arts types think you have cornered the market on “critical thinking”. Critical thinking is “the purposeful and reflective judgement about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments.” That sounds a lot closer to what you learn in engineering or business than in history class. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/87 "2010-01-18T18:15:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > In the long run you are right, but a lot of kids don’t think in the long run. Plus, a lot of kids see goofing off and practicing their basketball or skateboarding as cool now, and cool in the future if they get to be like a hero in the NBA. Studying is not cool now, and offers a future as a nerd. I think that’s largely because rote memorization is boring. Rote memorization is boring because it’s not really how the mind assimilates information. Yes, rote memorization works, but the attention span is limited. I failed Algebra II not because I couldn’t do the work but because I didn’t want to do 30 problems every night. If they’d had me do 5 that I really focused on, I probably would have aced the class. > [@](#): > > I agree about the basic skills, though there are some people I wouldn’t trust anywhere near a sink. A bit more kudos for self reliance would be good. When I read the Times I often read about how quite well educated people practically brag about not being able to balance a checkbook. If society, instead of thinking “how cute” thought “how stupid” perhaps they’d get with it. Yeah, that’d be much better. Not being able to balance a checkbook is retarded. Not being able to change a light-switch also. Turn off the fucking breaker, attach negative to negative, positive to positive and ground to ground. Screw it in with the faceplate. Voila, you’re done. If you switch positive and negative all that will happen is that your light will be off when the switch says On. Like my office light here next to me that was put in upside down so that off is facing upward instead of down. > [@](#): > > You can get a netbook for the price of three textbooks these days. Precisely. So if you think of it in terms of netbook cost + licensing for class materials in a given years - economies of scale provided by schools buying in bulk, and you have a much cheaper, more robust system that can be updated on the fly. Instead of buying a 70 textbook every five years, you pay a 15 per student license every year or even less, and the rollout of new material on the end of the publisher is made far cheaper by not having to implement a supply chain. Updates can be performed serverside opaque to the users, with a modular featureset. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/88 "2010-01-18T18:16:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I feel I should note that the pro liberal arts folks seem to be arguing based on what they “feel” the ideal breakdown of society should be. However as a management consultant (with a degree in engineering and an MBA), I prefer to make my decision based on data. And from the data I have observed (salary, hiring, etc), there continues to be a steady to high demand for STEM educated people. > > And I still can’t figure out why you liberal arts types think you have cornered the market on “critical thinking”. Critical thinking is “the purposeful and reflective judgement about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments.” That sounds a lot closer to what you learn in engineering or business than in history class. Who are you referring to as ‘pro-Liberal arts’ people? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/89 "2010-01-18T20:37:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Who are you referring to as ‘pro-Liberal arts’ people? Anyone in this thread who expressed an opinion that we need more liberal arts students and less STEM students. So \*\*Wesley Clark \*\*for one. **athelas** was another. My position is that we need both and the job market will indicate where there is a shortage of one and an overabundance of the other. Also, keep in mind that it’s not a “one or the other” thing. Plenty of people start off in engineering and then go into related “soft skills” jobs in management or sales & marketing. The important thing IMHO is to be well rounded. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/90 "2010-01-19T00:05:49Z")
And as my previous cite documents plenty start off in liberal arts baccalaureate only schools and end up as PhDs in the hard sciences doing research. Agreed that being well rounded is key. The issues are what defines “well rounded”, how do you achieve that that balance, and how well do we do it currently at various educational levels? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/91 "2010-01-19T00:18:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Anyone in this thread who expressed an opinion that we need more liberal arts students and less STEM students. So \*\*Wesley Clark \*\*for one. **athelas** was another. > > My position is that we need both and the job market will indicate where there is a shortage of one and an overabundance of the other. > > Also, keep in mind that it’s not a “one or the other” thing. Plenty of people start off in engineering and then go into related “soft skills” jobs in management or sales & marketing. The important thing IMHO is to be well rounded. Well-rounding of course being the purpose of a Liberal Arts education. The modern attenuation of being Classically Educated. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/92 "2010-01-20T20:06:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well-rounding of course being the purpose of a Liberal Arts education. The modern attenuation of being Classically Educated. Not the way it’s used today. Today it means I Can’t Do Math. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576/93 "2010-01-20T20:46:16Z")
Don’t knock it. If no-one had a well rounded liberal education then it would be impossible to get a secretary you could have a decent conversation with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-humanity-have-too-much-stem-education-or-too-little/524576.md?page=4)